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The death of Steel Challenge


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#21 Roper

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 12:29 AM

Why is Utah the place to be and who stands to gain from it?


As someone who lives in Utah, I think it's great. But honestly, when I heard it was going to be in St George - I was pretty surprised. It's not exactly a major hub of the West. 2 hour drive from Las Vegas or a 4 hour drive from Salt Lake City.

Either Vegas or Salt Lake would make sense, but St George?

Another thing, June in St George can easily be triple digit heat.

#22 Dr. Yellow Visor Guy

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 01:54 AM

Everyone who doesnt like SC, as USPSA surely sent it there to die.

 

I hope that's not true. I like steel challenge. 

 

My local club does pretty well as far as steel turnout, despite minimal promotion. But there are new stages every month, along with 1 standard-ish CS stage and usually the plate rack, so you get the novelty along with a somewhat consistent benchmark to track your progress. 

 

 

Fucking insomnia strikes again, and for whatever reason my semi-autistic brain can't seem to let go of this.....

 

As it stands, steel challenge as an organization has nothing to offer local club directors to justify sending money to HQ. So, what's the model? Is SC just going to earn its keep on nationals? Even at 225/entry with 100 or so entries, that isn't really going to cut it. Maybe Frostproof told HQ to take that small-potatoes crap and get on down the road?

 

Make it a bigger draw with 300+ entries and you might have enough to cover the overhead and administrative cost, but not much more. 

 

The alternative is to offer something to the shooters. USPSA and IDPA already have proven the classification model as a viable one. 

 

Some ideas:

 

1.       Develop library of 30 or more stages.

2.       Stages can vary in length from 3-8 rounds, they do not need to be 5.

3.       Nationals will be 10 randomly selected stages, and stages will not be made public until match day.  (maybe 24-48hrs prior max, depending on logistics)

a.       Alternative: National will be 8-10 NEW stages every year, and will serve as baseline for classifications.

4.       Practice bays at level  2 and higher matches will be limited to no more than one hour to make sure your shit works and your sights are on. They will not contain any stages to be used at that match. (probably shouldn't have anything resembling a stage, actually)

5.       Library of stages will be used in the same manner as USPSA classifiers, with distinctions made among classes. 

6.       Active SCSA clubs get something like a "find clubs/matches" function on a central CA website. It's advertising for the club, and more often than not a new shooter looking to get into the game isn't going to "podunkusconservationclub.com"

7.       Get a handle on IP issues like trademarks and whatnot. (my opinions on that will cost money)



#23 ChipDouglas

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 07:32 AM

I hope that's not true. I like steel challenge. 

 

My local club does pretty well as far as steel turnout, despite minimal promotion. But there are new stages every month, along with 1 standard-ish CS stage and usually the plate rack, so you get the novelty along with a somewhat consistent benchmark to track your progress. 

 

 

Fucking insomnia strikes again, and for whatever reason my semi-autistic brain can't seem to let go of this.....

 

As it stands, steel challenge as an organization has nothing to offer local club directors to justify sending money to HQ. So, what's the model? Is SC just going to earn its keep on nationals? Even at 225/entry with 100 or so entries, that isn't really going to cut it. Maybe Frostproof told HQ to take that small-potatoes crap and get on down the road?

 

Make it a bigger draw with 300+ entries and you might have enough to cover the overhead and administrative cost, but not much more. 

 

The alternative is to offer something to the shooters. USPSA and IDPA already have proven the classification model as a viable one. 

 

Some ideas:

 

1.       Develop library of 30 or more stages.

2.       Stages can vary in length from 3-8 rounds, they do not need to be 5.

3.       Nationals will be 10 randomly selected stages, and stages will not be made public until match day.  (maybe 24-48hrs prior max, depending on logistics)

a.       Alternative: National will be 8-10 NEW stages every year, and will serve as baseline for classifications.

4.       Practice bays at level  2 and higher matches will be limited to no more than one hour to make sure your shit works and your sights are on. They will not contain any stages to be used at that match. (probably shouldn't have anything resembling a stage, actually)

5.       Library of stages will be used in the same manner as USPSA classifiers, with distinctions made among classes. 

6.       Active SCSA clubs get something like a "find clubs/matches" function on a central CA website. It's advertising for the club, and more often than not a new shooter looking to get into the game isn't going to "podunkusconservationclub.com"

7.       Get a handle on IP issues like trademarks and whatnot. (my opinions on that will cost money)

 

Those are some great ideas..



#24 Jim Norman

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 09:01 AM

Steel Challenge is where we send new shooters that need to learn to draw and fire. 5 stages, 25 draws with first target aquisitions, no movement. This is an excellent place to learn fundamentals. We run a Steel Challenge Match adn we run what we call 'Real Deal Steel' which has the same rules, but over 200 different courses. You can't set up 5 stages and practice until youcan shoot them with your eyes closed. the courses are differrent each month. Then for fun we have a third steel match, 'Knock-Down' 25-35 odd shaped targets on hinges, shoot from one location mostly or on occassion from two or three different boxes. Targets are small shapes, stars, pins, triangles up to maybe 10 x 12 tombstones. Pistol pistol caliber carbine and SG area all allowed. Variety is the spice of life. We ty to maintain this in our USPSA matches as well. Tight shots, distant shots, yes we will put a US popper at 35 yards and a plate past 25. We will allow you just the head on a target between two NS targets. We also run the popular hoser stages. I will admit that I hate Standards. Good for practie and in truth should be included in a large match, but it is better to test the skills in the context of a 'real stage' as opposed to a Standards, at least that is my opinion. Most of us are shooting for fun and we don't spend 5 days away from home and $300 entry fee plus who knows how much more on hotels airfare, gas rentals etc. to shoot for 6 minutes an dshoot borig stand and shoot stages. And yes they are boring.



#25 foofighter

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 09:55 AM

And yes they are boring.

 

Steel is fun. Takes some mad skills to make it boring.



#26 snark

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 10:46 AM

Steel is an awesome entry-level for newbies to get into the sport. It looks easy, you don't need a ton of gear or to be rolling around under the trunk of a car on your first day outside your lane at the indoor range.

USPSA just needs to figure out how to add value to SC instead of trying to extract value from it. Screw the IP. That horse left the barn 20 years ago.

A database of good stages. A real classifier system. Marketing. The idea is to get people sucked in.

I used to trek to Piru every year. It was cool because everybody was there, the prize table blew you away and they had side-matches and demo stages out the wazoo. Once those went away, it gets harder and harder to get up and go and end up 30th OA or whatever again, where the entire top 25 shooters is separated by one extra shot's worth of time each.

Use the rules. Don't DQ someone who doesn't do anything DQable. -- Da Beard.

 


#27 Jim Norman

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:04 PM

Steel is fun. Takes some mad skills to make it boring.

Foo, SC is OK, and I admit freely to not having mad skills, my reference to boring was shooting a USPSA match that had a lot of Stand and Shoot. go to port A or Box B or worse, just a lot of stand here and shoot that standards.



#28 foofighter

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 06:09 PM

 A real classifier system.

 

Fuck yeah! Have USPSA figure out another classification system. What could possibly go wrong?


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#29 Shithead23

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 07:32 PM

Steel challenge was doing just fine until uspsa bought it.

L2683


#30 foofighter

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 11:25 PM

Steel challenge was doing just fine until uspsa bought it.

 

Lets start collecting money so USPSA can buy IDPA.


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#31 Shithead23

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 11:45 PM

Lets start collecting money so USPSA can buy IDPA.



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#32 waktasz

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 11:52 PM

There is zero fucking reason for steel challenge to exist as an organization, except for nationals.There is a huge steel league here in PA. There are more sponsors and a bigger prize table at the year end banquet there than for any other thing locally and it's not even close.  Why the fuck would a club pay a sanctioning body to allow them to shoot matches they've already been shooting for years and then pay back to the sanctioning body $2 per shooter that shows up at the match. Just so they can use the Steel Challenge name? Who cares.



#33 Dr. Yellow Visor Guy

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:49 AM

There is zero fucking reason for steel challenge to exist as an organization, except for nationals.There is a huge steel league here in PA. There are more sponsors and a bigger prize table at the year end banquet there than for any other thing locally and it's not even close.  Why the fuck would a club pay a sanctioning body to allow them to shoot matches they've already been shooting for years and then pay back to the sanctioning body $2 per shooter that shows up at the match. Just so they can use the Steel Challenge name? Who cares.

 

They'd be paying for the use of the name and use of the classification system. Same model as the 2 other very successful pistol games. 



#34 waktasz

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 07:35 AM

You're also paying for the ability to shoot major matches in USPSA and IDPA. What majors for Steel Challenge are there other than the championships for steel challenge?

 

And isn't the classification system broken and/or more fucked up than USPSA's for Steel Challenge?



#35 Dr. Yellow Visor Guy

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 08:23 AM

You're also paying for the ability to shoot major matches in USPSA and IDPA. What majors for Steel Challenge are there other than the championships for steel challenge?

 

And isn't the classification system broken and/or more fucked up than USPSA's for Steel Challenge?

 

That's actually a good point. Area/State Matches would be a good addition for those that aren't able for whatever reason to burn a week's worth of vacation to spend in Utah/Frostproof/whereever. 

 

Here in IN, my local club ran the state steel championship for the last few years. They used the logos and the name but I don't think they've ever sent a dime to Steel Challenge. (I could be wrong on that) That's an IP management problem. 

 

USPSA's classification system works fine as a member perk/benefit, because most members want to be classified, move up classifications, etc, etc. You can argue about whether it's an accurate representation of shooting skill, but simply as a business method it undeniably works. 

 

the current S/C classification system is dumb though. 



#36 SlivGod

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 10:44 AM

Um, what?? Did I miss something? Is Bianchi now more interesting than watching paint dry?
 

 

I was seriously wondering about the Bianchi remark. Why is it considered prestigious? 


"Forget the necessities, it's the luxuries I can't live without." 


#37 Hans3005

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:12 AM

Just start ttpsa you have to run around in tactical gear magpul mag changes and if you don't search and assess after each stage you are dq'd.
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#38 Dr. Yellow Visor Guy

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:22 AM

I was seriously wondering about the Bianchi remark. Why is it considered prestigious? 

 

Because Caleb shoots it, duh. 



#39 leas327

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:34 AM

I was seriously wondering about the Bianchi remark. Why is it considered prestigious?


Because NRA. They have the money to make it prestigious. And Jim Scouted will use that beautifully deep and rich voice to promote the living shit out of it on the two episodes they dedicate to it on shooting USA.
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#40 red headed stranger

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 12:16 PM

I was seriously wondering about the Bianchi remark. Why is it considered prestigious? 

 

Because it's an NRA joint.  And the money is pretty good too.  






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