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Slide Stop or Rack that shit


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#41 ZombieTactics

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 11:28 AM

Hasn't all the "fine motor skills" stuff been debunked by rocket surgeons?

 

Not really, at least not in the way I think you mean it. What has been determined is that it affects some people far less than others ... the kind usually chosen to be astronauts, fighter pilots, etc.

 

 

John Moses Browning put that slide stop there for a reason! All the other gun makers copied him, so there it is. Use it.

 

Again ... not really. Some manufacturers are quite clear that the slide stop is not a slide release. All this really means is that people should stop preaching one method or the other as if it is some universal holy writ.

The reasoning behind using the slide release is sound, if you have a gun designed to work that way and your goal is shaving 10ths of seconds off of a reload. There are observable issues with this method, if your concern is more tilted towards robust reliability under genuine fear-for-your-life levels of stress.

The reasoning behind racking the slide is sound, if your goal is achieving a consistent, reliable technique with the fewest number of technical issues over a wide range of firearm designs. That's probably why so many defensive instructors teach it ... teaching one thing which works almost perfectly for almost everyone is a better use of training time, than getting into every little individual special-snowflake combination of gear and personal preferences. I can't see how it can ever be faster, but perhaps it gains something in reliability under real stress.

 


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#42 The Virus

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 01:01 PM

The power stroke is taught simply because people think it's pure OPERATOR shit.

Look how badass I look when power stroking my weapon system platform!!

Followed by a grossly over exaggerated scanning for asses.

 

!!!!OPERATE!!!!


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#43 Dr. Yellow Visor Guy

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 01:13 PM

Not really, at least not in the way I think you mean it. What has been determined is that it affects some people far less than others ... the kind usually chosen to be astronauts, fighter pilots, etc.

 

 
 

 

Again ... not really. Some manufacturers are quite clear that the slide stop is not a slide release. All this really means is that people should stop preaching one method or the other as if it is some universal holy writ.

The reasoning behind using the slide release is sound, if you have a gun designed to work that way and your goal is shaving 10ths of seconds off of a reload. There are observable issues with this method, if your concern is more tilted towards robust reliability under genuine fear-for-your-life levels of stress.

The reasoning behind racking the slide is sound, if your goal is achieving a consistent, reliable technique with the fewest number of technical issues over a wide range of firearm designs. That's probably why so many defensive instructors teach it ... teaching one thing which works almost perfectly for almost everyone is a better use of training time, than getting into every little individual special-snowflake combination of gear and personal preferences. I can't see how it can ever be faster, but perhaps it gains something in reliability under real stress.

 

 

You got any citations or proof of that, or are you talking out of your ass? Name some names. Which manufacturers? 

 

 

 

Midvalley is right. JMB designed it to be used that way, and everyone since has copied his design. 

 

Some more interesting tidbits about what the 1911's various parts "were designed for"

 

Patent US708794 - AUTOMATIC FIREARM - Google Patents

 

 

 

The breech remainingthus wide open serves as an unmistakable

indication that the magazine is empty and for

continued firing must be replaced by a loaded 125

one. This is now readily and safely accomplished

by withdrawing the empty magazine

from the grip and introducing a loaded one

while the breech remains open. · Then releasing

the breech-slide by pressing upon the 130

thumb-piece p' of the latch-slide the breech

will be automatically closed by the reactionspring

e, and the pistol will be ready again

for firing.

 

Then, his later Patent 984519 on the 1911

Patent US984519 - MREARM - Google Patents

 

 

 

In order to adapt the handle to be readily moved upward and downward by the thumb of the hand grasping-the grip,the rear end of the handle j carries a projecting thumb piece j1

 

...

 

The inner lug j1 doe not interfer with the passage of the cartridges from the magazine to the chamber in the barrel,

‘ but when the last cartridge has been fed

from the magazine, the lug j2 stands in ‘the

path of the spring-follower of the magazine,

‘and when the breech-slide is moved to the

rear above the empty magazine, the follower"

' v will raise the ln j2 and the handle 2 and

.' cause the projection Z to enter the recess m

 

the breech-slide, thereby locking the‘ same

- in the open rear position. and serving as an‘

indicator to show that the empty magazine

must be replaced by a charged one before the

?ring can be continued. After placing the

magazine in the grip. the breech-slide is re

leased by depressing the handle j.



#44 dicksnot

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 01:30 PM

Followed by a grossly over exaggerated scanning for asses.

 

!!!!OPERATE!!!!

Miss-Reef-Contest-3-640x522.jpg


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#45 TheBlackKnight

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 04:26 PM

The whole name game is bullshit. What do you do with a pistol that has a "magazine catch"? Load that shit from the top? Never drop the mag? A glock slide release is a wear part and pretty cheap.

 

I choose to use the slide release because it's simply better. How far does your hand move when overhand racking the slide? how does that compare to the 3mm of travel of the slide release?

 

Some people would rather artificially set their standards low, so they may always default to those. Thats fine I guess, but I've always been one to find the best way of ensuring I win, and working till that is my default . Some people shy away from higher standards and poo poo on those who don't.

Examining the gross versus fine motor skills debate

 

Anyone that wants to refine and enhance their chosen trade must follow this simple logical process of critical thinking: establish a desired end-state and then: know what you do, why you do it, how it works, where the common failure points are and why it is the best solution. Then you will be able to defend it against competing solutions or techniques when challenged. That is impossible when undefined or misdefined terms are used.

Often instructors will invoke the “fine versus gross motor skill” argument to justify or invalidate a technique without ever defining the terms. Truth be told many don’t even know what each term means. The below definitions should illuminate where these have gone awry and when they do properly apply.

Because the motor skills used for weapons handling at times may not lie specifically on one side or the other of the definition it is often taken as all skills are fine motor functions (think slow precise trigger pull on a precision shot versus a rapid pull of the trigger on a short range rapid string as an action using both). Two perfect examples of gross motor skills that are mischaracterized as fine motor skills are releasing the bolt via the bolt catch on an Stoner pattern rifle and the slide via the slide stop on a pistol. Neither involves “a refined use of the small muscles controlling the hand, fingers, and thumb.” Both are in fact either the use of the locked wrist, extended thumb and the entire arm on an M4 bolt release or the complete clenching of the hand on a pistol to release a slide stop given appropriate hand size or the use of the support side thumb to release the slide. Both when done properly place the hand on an anchor point on the weapon as a way to rapidly and precisely orient the active hand and thumb to the necessary location (tactile index points). Tactile index points are the magazine well on an M4, or a proper grip on a pistol when using either the dominant or support side thumb.

***How could a shooter effectively operate a trigger or magazine release on a pistol or carbine but not be able to operate the slide stop or bolt release?***

• “The term gross motor skills refer to the abilities usually acquired during infancy and early childhood as part of a child’s motor development. By the time they reach two years of age, almost all children are able to stand up, walk and run, walk up stairs, etc. These skills are built upon, improved and better controlled throughout early childhood, and continue in refinement throughout most of the individual’s years of development into adulthood. These gross movements come from large muscle groups and whole body movement.”

• “Fine motor skills can be defined as coordination of small muscle movements which occur e.g., in the fingers, usually in coordination with the eyes. In application to motor skills of hands (and fingers) the term dexterity is commonly used. The abilities which involve the use of the hands develop over time, starting with primitive gestures such as grabbing at objects to more precise activities that involve precise hand-eye coordination. Fine motor skills, are skills that involve a refined use of the small muscles controlling the hand, fingers, and thumb. The development of these skills allows one to be able to complete tasks such as writing, drawing, and buttoning.”

The terms used to frame a discussion and the definitions of those terms must be correct or all subsequent assertions will be incorrect. Skill and knowledge rarely exist apart from each other.

-Mike Pannone

 


"""MAGS ALONG SIDE OF THE BOX BOB!!!!!!!!"""


#46 waktasz

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 04:48 PM

I shot an IDPA match today with an STI that doesn't lock back when empty. I had to rack the slide with every reload. I felt like a retard.  It's science.



#47 Howie Feltersnatch

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 08:41 PM

Tldr.

#48 ZombieTactics

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 10:36 PM

You got any citations or proof of that, or are you talking out of your ass? Name some names. Which manufacturers? 

 

Page 40 of my Glock armorer's manual refers to the part as a "Slide Stop", and I have a hand-written note in the margins that Glock prefers that it is not used to release the slide (because that's not it's purpose), although it functions well-enough for that. That information came from the course's trainer, who I think probably has it straight from authoritative sources. I don't claim to know anything in this respect except that information I received in becoming a certified armorer. Maybe you can call them up and correct them.

According to Ruger, the slide stop is a slide stop, not a slide release. You can probably determine as much by attempting to manually operate the slide stop as a release with your thumb on the "C" models, as it's extremely difficult to do so.

I do understand how people get their panties in a bunch about things like this, as it calls into question poor reasoning and lack of knowledge regarding some particular thing in which they have a lot of ego investment. I get my sense of self worth elsewhere, so I honestly don't care what anyone else does ... as it doesn't affect me.

Do as you please, believe as you please. If someone gets some umpteenth-of-second difference on one hand or some sense doing it "like an operator" on the other hand ... they can  knock themselves out with that oh-so-special-snowflake feeling they get for all I care. ;) 

"... and yet it moves." 

 



#49 waktasz

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 10:39 PM

Why does the Glock 34/35/24/17L come with an extended one then?

 

And Rugers suck, so go fuck yourself for using that as a reference.


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#50 ZombieTactics

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 10:41 PM

I shot an IDPA match today with an STI that doesn't lock back when empty. I had to rack the slide with every reload. I felt like a retard.  It's science.

 

Hmmm seems like in some cases the slide-thingy-lever doesn't work in that case, and you have to use a technique which is more reliable. I am certain it's slower, and you'll want to get the gun fixed ASAP.



#51 waktasz

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 10:53 PM

The gun is set up to do that on purpose. 

 

Also, there were these two guys on the squad who insisted on racking the slide for all of their reloads. About half the time they road the slide home and it didn't go all the way in battery...then Jesus came down from on high and told them to use the slide release, and they both became Grand Masters, the end.



#52 ZombieTactics

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 11:06 PM

Also, there were these two guys on the squad who insisted on racking the slide for all of their reloads. About half the time they road the slide home and it didn't go all the way in battery...

Sounds dumb in a competition context. Also sounds like they weren't doing it right.



#53 Dr. Yellow Visor Guy

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 11:08 PM

Page 40 of my Glock armorer's manual refers to the part as a "Slide Stop", and I have a hand-written note in the margins that Glock prefers that it is not used to release the slide (because that's not it's purpose), although it functions well-enough for that. That information came from the course's trainer, who I think probably has it straight from authoritative sources. I don't claim to know anything in this respect except that information I received in becoming a certified armorer. Maybe you can call them up and correct them.

According to Ruger, the slide stop is a slide stop, not a slide release. You can probably determine as much by attempting to manually operate the slide stop as a release with your thumb on the "C" models, as it's extremely difficult to do so.

I do understand how people get their panties in a bunch about things like this, as it calls into question poor reasoning and lack of knowledge regarding some particular thing in which they have a lot of ego investment. I get my sense of self worth elsewhere, so I honestly don't care what anyone else does ... as it doesn't affect me.

Do as you please, believe as you please. If someone gets some umpteenth-of-second difference on one hand or some sense doing it "like an operator" on the other hand ... they can  knock themselves out with that oh-so-special-snowflake feeling they get for all I care. ;) 

"... and yet it moves." 

 

 

 

Hmm. that isn't what you said earlier. "Some manufacturers are quite clear that the slide stop is not a slide release"

 

Yet - "4. After the last round has been fired, the slide remains open. Remove the empty magazine from
the weapon by pushing the magazine catch (19). Insert a new magazine and then either push
the slide stop lever (27) downwards (see photo), or pull the slide slightly backwards and allow it
to spring forwards. The weapon is now again secured and ready to fire"

 

The manual says it can be used in such a way. And I took the same armorers course, and no such thing was said about it not be using according to the manual.

 

The manual does not say what you say it says. That makes you either a liar or an illiterate. Which is it?



#54 ZombieTactics

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 11:24 PM

 

 

The manual does not say what you say it says. That makes you either a liar or an illiterate. Which is it?

 

I'm looking at my armorer's manual on page 40, with hand written notes from the lecture by the instructor. I submit that it makes me neither a liar nor illiterate. You are welcome to continue getting yourself as twisted up as you please, lol. It matters not.



#55 Dr. Yellow Visor Guy

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 11:27 PM

I'm looking at my armorer's manual on page 40, with hand written notes from the lecture by the instructor. I submit that it makes me neither a liar nor illiterate. You are welcome to continue getting yourself as twisted up as you please, lol. It matters not.

 

Your self-serving handwritten notes, that aren't corroborated by someone who took the same course nor the plain language in the manual are your evidence? Lame.

 

Why do your notes contradict the text of the manual? Because you are a liar or stupid. There really aren't many other alternatives here. 



#56 ZombieTactics

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 11:34 PM

Why do your notes contradict the text of the manual? Because you are a liar or stupid. There really aren't many other alternatives here. 

 

There are plenty of other alternatives, your (self-serving) lack of imagination in this regard notwithstanding. 

Thanks for serving as the apt exemplar to something I was suggesting to Ben a week or so ago on on the FB page.



#57 The Virus

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 11:36 PM

I was gonna put an extended slide release on my glock, but since it don't do that there is no point.



#58 Dr. Yellow Visor Guy

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 11:36 PM

You've been caught in a lie, and your response is some nonsense about imagination? 



#59 ZombieTactics

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 11:39 PM

 



#60 ZombieTactics

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 11:41 PM

You've been caught in a lie, and your response is some nonsense about imagination? 

 

I have not been "caught" in anything except a web of your own un-examined assumptions. I was there, I know what I heard and I can read what I wrote.

 

How easy it is to get you all upset and fuming though, lol. You sure you aren't a Scientologist or something?






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