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Training Without a Timer


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#41 LeadChucker

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Posted 18 September 2015 - 02:45 PM

Best podcast ever. All the topics were very useful, great info
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#42 Miculek is a Noob

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Posted 18 September 2015 - 06:43 PM

You're right, it was excellent info.

 

I remember trying to figure out what Stegger's angle was when this thread started, I figured it was a survey for a class topic or something. But the podcast turned things right on their head, especially Ben's discussion of his approach to match shooting. It's not that complicated, but I still found it surprising at how the pieces fit together -- use your dryfire to train the movement and gun handling skills, and par times are there to keep you working. I missed the connection where the live fire training is for learning how to it feels to get the hits at match speed... that's profound.

 

I'm not sure the panelists grasped what he was saying, but I got something out of it anyhow. Thanks guys....



#43 ZachJ

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Posted 18 September 2015 - 07:03 PM

To measure how one's match pace is getting faster and faster..

 

Could you do something like say an evaluation after most of your practice where you run 5 El Prez's(or whatever drill) at the match pace, use HF(doesn't even have to be HF, could be time since a match pace means damn good accuracy) from each and average the 5. That would be a person's match pace at the moment of said evaluation.

 

Then when a person feels like their match pace has gotten faster, they do it again, see if their time/HF has improved.

 

I know there's a big gap(2 seconds) between my fastest/highest HF accelerator compared to the speed I would do it at I had match placement riding on it.


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#44 not that bryan

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 08:18 AM

It seemed to me like Ben's reasoning for training without a timer was to get his match pace closer to his fastest practice pace. Once he had developed his fastest speed in practice, his goal was to get his match speed closer to his best practice speed. The goal of not using the timer wasn't to decrease his best time, but to get his match time closer to it.
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#45 jimbob

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 01:53 PM

Best podcast ever. All the topics were very useful, great info

 

Agreed.   As far as good shooting discussion this is hand down the best podcast since the format change.   

 

I stopped looking at the timer like 8 months ago because it just fealt like I was chasing an endless goal and it wasn't helping and I was going to matches constantly worried about speed, and thats all anyone talks about at a club level "how fast were you".

 

I didn't really know why or make a concious decision to stop looking at it, but there was a definite point where I was like "why am I even looking at this" and just started using the beep.

 

And like magic, matches for some reason started feeling more comfortable and errors reduced.

 

The way ben explains it makes alot of sense to me based on my experience.  I could never have put the thoughts together the way he did though. 



#46 Miculek is a Noob

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 02:02 PM

I do feel somewhat cheated, like Stegger or someone should have told me this shit a long time ago.
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#47 PChan

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Posted 21 September 2015 - 09:54 AM

The Dumb found looks on the panelist faces after Stoeger explained his ideology about practicing without a timer was classic. Its like being told the world is round when their whole shooting life they been told it was flat.

 

I don't own a timer, so I rely on my smart phone when I'm on the range during live fire practices, I do find my practice pace is about the same as my match pace as well, so the more I push in practice without a real timer I notice the faster my match pace has become getting about the same amount of points, usually about 90% to 95%. Couple of months ago at a local match we only had like 20 people show up so I enter 2 divisions production and Limited 10, production was my normal "race pace" and Lim10 was my as fast as I can while still able to call hits. I ended up running the match about 11 secs faster in Lim10, but I could only finish within 96% of my Production finish. After that It open my eyes.


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#48 Motosapiens

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Posted 21 September 2015 - 05:37 PM

Some other dude has preaching for quite a while that you can't effectively train speed and accuracy at the same time.

 

I think many people fall into the trap of continually chasing lower par times, and they don't realize they are cheating with their vision. I sure was. The last few months I've been doing a significant amount of untimed practice (still a minority tho), just focusing on letting the sights dictate when to pull the trigger.  Several times a week i'll just do a 5-6 minute session of movement in a square or circle or oval, keeping transitioning between targets at 10-15 yards. A result of this training is I seem to finally be really getting the information my sights are sending out to me. I only had 1 delta in yesterday's match, and it was one I knew was shaky, because I pulled my eyes off the target before the gun went off, and as my eyes left, I saw the sights moving to the right on the target. Sho nuff. Delta on the right side. The only target I really had to go look at on the stage.

 

When I'm not doing untimed practice, I'm often focusing purely on speed (while seeing the sights). Trying to get the sights in the a-zone for every trigger pull, and grip the gun hard and squeeze the trigger smoothly, but at least being aware of when they aren't quite there, or when i'm flopping the gun around as I pull the trigger. This has resulted in faster being the new normal, which has led to significantly faster stage times, probably a 15-20% improvement over the last few months. I still have a ways to go, but the improvement since the spring has been pretty notable, and I feel like I'm just getting rolling.

 

I also think it's worthwhile to consider another concept, which I would call 'unjudged use of the timer'. I use it for the start beep, but then I just let my sights dictate when to shoot, and I observe the time, and the hits. It is interesting to see how much (if any) time it costs to get a little bit better sight picture. I have found that the extra .05 or .10 on acquiring and lining up the sights often leads to a faster and more accurate (and more confident) 2nd shot.

 

The downside of this is that it seems to be opening endless new things for me to practice and train and improve, and there's only so much time and energy available. It seems that if you really see what's going on when you live fire, and when you dryfire, you can do alot more interesting and useful things in dryfire than if you just get a single sight picture and yank the trigger twice to beat the par time. I think ben has alluded to that very thing when discussing why he relies on dryfire so much more than the average really good shooter.


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