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What's Wrong With USPSA

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#21 jakem

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 11:05 AM

re: Marketing, here's some more: Front Sight should be on magazine racks. There should also be some video work like 3-Gun Nation does, but obviously that's not as simple.

 
Steel Challenge is practically the ideal intro to action shooting of any kind, and should claim it's place as such in marketing. No movement, minimal mechanics to get hung up on, scoring is straightforward, minimal stage planning, it moves quickly (no taping/resetting), and steel gives better feedback than paper. You can shoot it with a .22 pistol or rifle *and* eliminate the holster/unholster steps, yet still be equipment-competitive (within RFP/RFI, obviously) as long as your gun is reliable.
 

re: Targets, I kinda prefer the classic ones- the heads are very rarely used, and when they are they quickly become nothing but tape and hard to score quickly. When it's windy they flop around. And if by switching HQ can also preemptively avoid a political-correctness fight, so much the better. We already have jokes about "don't shoot the white ones, only the brown ones". 3-Gun Nation, for example, completely avoids this.

 

re: Scoring: meh. I think hit factor isn't to blame so much as the targets. It's not immediately obvious how significant better hits might be vs going faster. However, at least with Practiscore you can know your hit factor before moving to the next stage and can compare HFs... that's more or less as good as most time-plus systems. Again, 3GN targets are better- every target is effectively scored "yes/no" so scoring is more obvious. But using time-plus, they have to be careful and make all stages take approximately the same time in order for all stages to be important to the overall results.

 

Another thing: stage design is sometimes infuriatingly bad. I'm thinking of those times at stages where you have to *almost* break the 180 rule to be able to shoot a target, that seem to be designed mostly to try to get people DQ'd. It's like the MD is intentionally setting people up to fail, and then giving them a stiff penalty when they fall for it. If they really believed that the 180 rule was there for safety, then tempting people to break it is inherently unsafe stage design. This is pretty shit for a new shooter, because it makes the rules seem arbitrary. When they get DQ'd, can't shoot the rest of the match, and don't get their money back, all because the MD "tricked" them, it just teaches them that the sport is stupid. On top of that, it's at the RO's discretion... so magically the RO's friends never seem to have a problem.



#22 Vagetarian

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 12:22 PM

re: Marketing, here's some more: (1) Front Sight should be on magazine racks. (2) There should also be some video work like 3-Gun Nation does, but obviously that's not as simple.

 
Steel Challenge is practically the ideal intro to action shooting of any kind, and should claim it's place as such in marketing. No movement, minimal mechanics to get hung up on, scoring is straightforward, minimal stage planning, it moves quickly (no taping/resetting), and steel gives better feedback than paper. You can shoot it with a .22 pistol or rifle *and* eliminate the holster/unholster steps, yet still be equipment-competitive (within RFP/RFI, obviously) as long as your gun is reliable.
 

re: Targets, I kinda prefer the classic ones- the heads are very rarely used, and when they are they quickly become nothing but tape and hard to score quickly. When it's windy they flop around. And if by switching HQ can also preemptively avoid a political-correctness fight, so much the better. We already have jokes about "don't shoot the white ones, only the brown ones". 3-Gun Nation, for example, completely avoids this.

 

re: Scoring: meh. I think hit factor isn't to blame so much as the targets. It's not immediately obvious how significant better hits might be vs going faster. However, at least with Practiscore you can know your hit factor before moving to the next stage and can compare HFs... that's more or less as good as most time-plus systems. Again, 3GN targets are better- every target is effectively scored "yes/no" so scoring is more obvious. But using time-plus, they have to be careful and make all stages take approximately the same time in order for all stages to be important to the overall results.

 

Another thing: stage design is sometimes infuriatingly bad. I'm thinking of those times at stages where you have to *almost* break the 180 rule to be able to shoot a target, that seem to be designed mostly to try to get people DQ'd. It's like the MD is intentionally setting people up to fail, and then giving them a stiff penalty when they fall for it. If they really believed that the 180 rule was there for safety, then tempting people to break it is inherently unsafe stage design. This is pretty shit for a new shooter, because it makes the rules seem arbitrary. When they get DQ'd, can't shoot the rest of the match, and don't get their money back, all because the MD "tricked" them, it just teaches them that the sport is stupid. On top of that, it's at the RO's discretion... so magically the RO's friends never seem to have a problem.

(1) Nobody buys magazines anymore.  They're a write-off for publishers against their online profits.

 

(2) Bro, do you even Paul Hyland?

 

(3) Jesus you really are a newb.  DQ traps aren't real and that has been determined in no less than 14,235 posts in umpty-nine threads here.  GWTFP and quit trying to impress us with your noble commentary.

 

(4) fuck your 3GN comparisons.  Save that shit for M4C and ARF.  We are USPSA major, IDPGAY minor.


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#23 GuruOfGuns

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 12:43 PM

What's wrong with USPSA? Not very fucking much, any large match fills up quickly, except for a very few whiners, shooters are enjoying themselves at local matches. Judging by that it's doing fine.


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#24 Maxamundo

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 01:39 PM

Thanks for taking the time to write this because fuck knows none of us would have ever taken the time to do it.

 

But you're griping about different things here making the post a bit confusing.

 

"Production Division is now bullshit. The scoring system is ridiculous. Gaming needs to be mitigated. We need to change the popper calibration rule." - These points are not relevant to the abysmal state of USPSA and belong in another post.

 

 

I am a 21 year old shooter who started shooting one year ago when I bought my first pistol ever. I had no pistol experience at all. I joined USPSA in February 2015 which makes me a member for 7 months. I am exactly the "new shooter/new gun owner" that USPSA needs to attract more of. Maybe some of you will disregard my perspective because I'm just a dumb kid who doesn't know anything and wasn't around for the history of the sport. But maybe others will find it insightful.

 

First I'll address the points McGavin made:

 

-USPSA requires a great deal of work in the marketing department.

 

Absolutely. There is a small glimmer of hope that Foley will be able to make some progress here, but it might be hard to work through the rest of the USPSA leadership. The problem is USPSA has no FANS. Everyone who follows the sport is a participant themselves. How do you market to new shooters when you are completely invisible to your audience?   

 

-We should move entirely to the Classic targets.

 

Yes. 1000000x yes. We are a shooting sport. Exactly. Let IDPA have the faceshooting targets. Are you really that close-minded that you can't give up a fucking head box if it meant more positive media coverage and sponsorship opportunities for USPSA? Even if there isn't any proof that switching to turtles will attract sponsors and media - why do you really care what the target you're shooting at looks like? Detach yourself from the targets and focus on the shooting. The fight to keep the silhouette targets is NOT a fight any of us should be picking.

 

-Switch the Nationals back to Las Vegas every now and then.

 

As long as nationals moves around every year, then yes it should be held on the west coast as well. Vegas is perfect. Right in the middle of everything, and it's an attraction itself aside from shooting so it's much easier to justify the travel expenses.

 

 

The thing that did it for me this year was seeing how unimpressive production nats was. I was really saddened seeing production nats look worse than some local matches I've attended. Just compare it to the IPSC World Shoot in 2014. That match had beautiful, uniform stage barriers, interesting, themed stage designs, and an extravagant awards ceremony that made me proud to be a competitor. Why don't we hold our own NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP match to the same standards? 

 

I think it's very interesting that Guru's opinion is that nothing is wrong. I'll bet a lot of USPSA members probably share his view. And they'd be right if they're satisfied with USPSA as it is.

 

But for something as fun and impressive to watch as our shooting sport, I'd like to think we can keep growing and growing and see how big we can get. 

 

On a related note, can somebody explain why USPSA is so different from IPSC? Why aren't we simply the IPSC-USA instead of a whole different org entirely?

 


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#25 RockOutGLOCKOut

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 02:43 PM

Addressed point by point:

 

 

 

-USPSA requires a great deal of work in the marketing department.  

 

Spot on here.   As a younger, more disconnected guy, I had no idea I lived within a reasonable drive to four different clubs that I now shoot at, and that I could have went and competed from the time I got my first handgun (approximately 9 years prior to my first match).   I'd see videos online occasionally of Max or Jerry M. but I never knew what organization they were shooting with.   I got a run down of the differences between IPSC and IDPA at one point and was told I should try it, but I didn't know where to go.   Even when I found the USPSA website I couldn't find any results for Ohio matches other than the State Match, so I assumed there were none around.

 

At the same time, anytime you see an advertisement for USPSA, it's always a guy with a jersey on.  When I showed up to my first few larger club matches or major matches, seeing three quarters of motherfuckers there with some sort of jersey on was sort of disconcerting.   "I'm in over my head with this shit, these guys are all professionals".   That's before I realized that the presence of a jersey does not necessarily equate to them being able to hit the broad side of a barn.   

 

Just saying... maybe the marketing should include some catering to the Tom, Dicks and Harry's that show up in an NFL T shirt and shooting their bedstand gun.    

 

-Production Division is now bullshit.  Tanfoglios and Accushadows?  ...

 

I don't necessarily disagree, but too late to change it now.

 

 

-The scoring system is ridiculous.

 

No, I like hit factor scoring and don't think it needs to change.   

 

-Gaming needs to be mitigated.

 

Meh.   

 

-We should move entirely to the Classic targets.

 

When I first heard this idea I disagree with it, but really I don't give a shit.    If we change anything, I could see Classic only for Level II or III and up, but still allow the metrics for Level 1 matches.  

 

-Switch the Nationals back to Las Vegas every now and then.

 

Never been there, no opinion.   I do agree with the idea it shouldn't be in the same places all the time, but I did laugh when you seemed to indicate that Vegas is "centrally located".   Nice one, Magellan.  

 

 

-We need to change the popper calibration rule.  It is honestly the stupidest thing in the world when a competitor gets a clean hit in or above the calibration zone, and the popper does not fall.  Then the ROs have to go out and do a little dance and follow the procedure.  The guy hit the damn thing, and it didn't go down.  We chrono at all major matches.  The RO should be allowed to call range equipment failure if the popper doesn't drop.  Additionally, if there's a clear hit on a painted target, it should be an automatic reshoot.  If the shooter hits it again and it falls- then too bad.

 

Agreed.    

 

I'd also like to see a level 1 rule that just gives them the goddamn hit  if a) they are painting the targets for each run, and B) it was a hit within the calibration zone.   Fuck a bunch of reshoots for one piece of shit popper


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#26 Buck Turgidson

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 03:02 PM

Things can always be better but if you want to see what a sport on its death throes looks like go watch a bullseye pistol or highpower rifle match,.........


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#27 RockOutGLOCKOut

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 03:23 PM

 

I am a 21 year old shooter who started shooting one year ago when I bought my first pistol ever. I had no pistol experience at all. I joined USPSA in February 2015 which makes me a member for 7 months. I am exactly the "new shooter/new gun owner" that USPSA needs to attract more of. Maybe some of you will disregard my perspective because I'm just a dumb kid who doesn't know anything and wasn't around for the history of the sport. But maybe others will find it insightful.

 

 

 

Non doodie like post....   welcome, and bring your friends.


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#28 phil datpus

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 03:55 PM

All the big networks are lining up to cover the sport if we would just get rid of the head boxes-not. Somebody please put this stupid notion to rest. USPSA is really fun and really crowded. It would be great to have better facilities and/or more of them. It will always be a niche sport. Turtles won't change it, just look for IPSC ratings in Europe.
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#29 BDSoverflow

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 04:33 PM

Tanfos and CZ's have made Production better. Steel guns and DA/SA can be as competitive as fantastic polymer from the going trend.

#30 leas327

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 04:46 PM

The whole get rid of metric targets because floppy heads is stupid. Have you classic loving goons ever shot a match in the rain with turtle targets? They fucking blow, the whole damn target curls up.

Don't like tages with a headbox...hang them upside-down. A side effect could be more feminist women get involved in USPSA. Two birds with one stone...Viva la dickshooting!
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#31 jayohee

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 04:51 PM

Not a bad 1st post



#32 GuanoLoco

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 05:07 PM

The whole get rid of metric targets because floppy heads is stupid. Have you classic loving goons ever shot a match in the rain with turtle targets? They fucking blow, the whole damn target curls up.
Don't like tages with a headbox...hang them upside-down. A side effect could be more feminist women get involved in USPSA. Two birds with one stone...Viva la dickshooting!


The turtle target sure isn't the be-all and end-all.
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#33 Sad Sack

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 06:26 PM

What's wrong with USPSA? Not very fucking much, any large match fills up quickly, except for a very few whiners, shooters are enjoying themselves at local matches. Judging by that it's doing fine.

 

Too short.  There must be more...


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#34 Conspiracy Brother

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Posted 21 September 2015 - 07:41 AM

The general shape and the head in particular on the metric target can be a huge help when designing and building stages.  All PC reasons aside, I'd hate to see it go for that reason alone.


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#35 Doc

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Posted 21 September 2015 - 09:59 AM

Premise - USPSA needs to be bigger/more popular. "USPSA (and IPSC in general) is esoteric at best, and extremely inaccessible to the public at large."

 

WHY??? It is true that we need a constant influx of new shooters even just to stay at the level of participation we have now. People get old or burn out.

 

But opening the flood gates to all shooters would be a HUGE fucking mistake. I've been in USPSA since 1995 and I have seen every kind of new shooter come through. Easily 75% of the people who just show up and want to try it (not referred by someone already in the sport) are so fucking dangerous to themselves and others that they should not even be owning firearms. We absolutely need a stepping stone for the average Joe gunowner to learn real gun safety and get some proficiency. Steel challenge might be ideal in that regard. What makes me cringe is Billy-Bob coming out with his farm tin can blaster that he was taught to shoot by his Uncle Raymond.

 

As I have written here before, we run a new shooter safety/orientation course before we let anyone play. Not everyone passes.

 

My perspective is that USPSA should be somewhat inaccessible. There should be at least safety hurdles to clear.

 

Marketing

 

Gun stores, Gun shows, the SHOT show, firearms manufacturers, other shooting competitions and more. Good task for the new Prez after he fixes the other disfunctionality first.

 

Production

 

Really? A few people shooting unicorns at the higher levels and production is broken? Bull fucking shit. No unicorns at our local matches and the guys in production are having just as much fun as everyone else. Move along.

 

Scoring

 

This isn't about ease or shooters knowing up to the millisecond who is winning. It is about balancing the three tenents of the sport, remember them? Speed, Power and accuracy. I haven't seen a time plus scoring system yet that evenly factors all three of the sport's core concepts.

 

Stuff your time plus, harden up and learn the system. If you want instant gratification, peek at the master tablet for PractiScore during the match. I really don't know why you even bother because it could, and often does, turn on the last stage. It ain't over 'till it's over. Cool your jets and shoot your own fucking match without worrying about who is "leading."

 

Gaming

 

You have no fucking idea. Climb a wall lately? Do you even Cooper Tunnel? How about a forward roll as a holster test, or mayby you just want do the jump over the stick?

 

You have a hard on for a gimmic stage? Design a few and get your MD to use them then interview the shooters to see how you did. THEN come back and lecture us on stage design.

 

Classic fucking targets

 

Let's start with the obvious. There isn't anything 'classic' about them. IPSC started in the US, not the other way around. Classic targets are limbo targets in the rain and kites in the wind. That tiny-ass stapeling area is bullshit. Re-design them to hold up better in the wind and rain and our club might consider using them. Upon losing a bet. With high level threats.

 

I'm going to fix the rain bag floppy head problem of the metric target once and for all. Target sticks are 5'. Staple your metric target so the head is just below the top of the stick (about 4'5" at the shoulder. Bag now rests on the sticks. Boom, fixed.

 

And there is more. The head of the metric target is magicly the same size as a 6" square plate. Is that just a coincidence? The two were designed that way to compliment each other. The metric target lends itself to many, many more possibilities than the 'classic' target does.

 

As for the PC aspect, for-fucking-get it. We run with guns. Our scenarios make it clear that our targets are PEOPLE. There are even hostage targets to reinforce that. Do you think you can place ANY kind of target in a hallway behind a door you have to open and fool anyone into thinking it doesn't represent a person??? Really? Fuck, you are deluded.

 

Nationals

 

Hold them at good facilities and make them special. The Prez should NEVER farm them out to some other MD, he is the fucking MD and it needs to be the premier shooting event surpassing any Section or Area match in WOW.

 

Calibration

 

Really? Ran out of really important stuff to bitch about?


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#36 Buck Turgidson

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Posted 21 September 2015 - 10:30 AM

 

-The scoring system is ridiculous.  "Hey guys, who's winning the match?"  "Well I have no idea.  Since I brought my abacus to the range, I know my cumulative hit factor, but Stoeger hasn't shot yet, so that could change everything."  No.  We should move to something sensible like time plus.  Not GSSF time plus.  Not IDPA time plus.  But a small penalty for Cs, and double that for Ds (maybe C/D/M = .15/.30/1.00 for Production as an example).  This way we could actually tell what our score is on the fly, and not have a jam on a 24 round classifier obliterate a match by crushing our hit factor.   

 

 

You may be able to tell your score on the fly, and maybe even that of your squadmates.  But you STILL won't know shit about how other shooters in other squads are doing until the fucking end.

 

You fail


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#37 pmt

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Posted 21 September 2015 - 11:01 AM


 

But opening the flood gates to all shooters would be a HUGE fucking mistake. I've been in USPSA since 1995 and I have seen every kind of new shooter come through. Easily 75% of the people who just show up and want to try it (not referred by someone already in the sport) are so fucking dangerous to themselves and others that they should not even be owning firearms. We absolutely need a stepping stone for the average Joe gunowner to learn real gun safety and get some proficiency. Steel challenge might be ideal in that regard. What makes me cringe is Billy-Bob coming out with his farm tin can blaster that he was taught to shoot by his Uncle Raymond.

 

As I have written here before, we run a new shooter safety/orientation course before we let anyone play. Not everyone passes.

 

My perspective is that USPSA should be somewhat inaccessible. There do need to be at least safety hurdles to clear.

 

 

I know, fuck Canada, but here's an outline of what they do, before you can shoot sactioned matches.

 

http://www.ipsc-cana...g/training.html

 

The course may vary slightly from province to province - in Ontario it used to be 4hrs of classroom (Friday evening) and two full days on the range (Sat&Sun)



#38 GLOCK_sh00t3R24

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Posted 21 September 2015 - 12:34 PM

 

If I remember correctly, the original purpose of this forum was to stir up the shit a little bit (a stated mission which is evidenced by its moniker), so I thought I'd do just that.  I've shot this sport for quite a long time, and it is quite literally one of my favorite things to do.  I honestly still can't believe that people let us run around and race with handguns.  However, my passion has led to a wall of frustration as the sport has failed to evolve, and has instead warmed itself into a comfortable little niche.  Although, judging by match participation over the past several years, we've grown in numbers, in my opinion we haven't grown nearly to the extent we should have.  USPSA (and IPSC in general) is esoteric at best, and extremely inaccessible to the public at large.

 

This is a gripe list, and these topics have been addressed from time to time here and on brianenos, but rather than discussing them individually I am viewing them in the collective (as they are indeed points of evidence of a particular insular mindset):

 

-USPSA requires a great deal of work in the marketing department.  There is quite simply very little awareness of the sport for the majority of gun owners.  For the level of talent we have in this game, we should be the gold standard for how recreational shooters measure up against.  Instead, we constantly fight battles over the Internet with idiots who claim "that'll get you killed in the real world" and "I want to defend myself, not win a trophy."  At SHOT, there was virtually no official USPSA presence (in spite of the best efforts of the ubiquitous Taran Butler entourage).  If you walk into a gun store, you will not find USPSA flyers or brochures.  USPSA has scarce visibility in mainstream media outside of Shooting USA.  Additionally, when it comes to things like instructional videos, USPSA's web presence leaves much on the table.  There are ample opportunities for SEO and SEM improvements when it comes to establishing our sport and our top guys as the thought leaders/brand ambassadors for gun culture in the US.  Additionally, some of our champions are exceptional LEO and Military instructors (which should bridge the gap between competition and defense).

I agree, but what will happen when local matches are having 100+ people showing up and local matches take as long as a 3 gun match?  2 days of shooting maybe?  

 

-Production Division is now bullshit.  Tanfoglios and Accushadows?  Really guys?  This division was created around the Glock 17, and commonly available 9mm handguns.  It was not intended to support $2500 race guns specifically designed for competition.  Now, let me put this simply- they are not huge advantages.  I would argue that one of these delivers about a 2% edge at best.  However, having the public at large see space guns which nobody owns as the most common equipment does us a huge disservice.  People walking onto the range should think that they too can be a GM with an Uncle Mike's cheapo rig and the plastic gun they may carry or keep in their sock drawer.  On top of that, we've now created an equipment race within the game itself for people who want to chase that slight advantage.  

Boo hoo.  They are working within the rules making these guns.  And Tanfo's and CZs are hardly "space guns".  Anyone who thinks they will just walk on the range and become a GM with any gun is fucktard.

 

-The scoring system is ridiculous.  "Hey guys, who's winning the match?"  "Well I have no idea.  Since I brought my abacus to the range, I know my cumulative hit factor, but Stoeger hasn't shot yet, so that could change everything."  No.  We should move to something sensible like time plus.  Not GSSF time plus.  Not IDPA time plus.  But a small penalty for Cs, and double that for Ds (maybe C/D/M = .15/.30/1.00 for Production as an example).  This way we could actually tell what our score is on the fly, and not have a jam on a 24 round classifier obliterate a match by crushing our hit factor.  

Gay.  It's not that hard to figure out, if you went faster and got better hits then you are probably doing better than guys who went slower with shittier hits.  

 

-Gaming needs to be mitigated.  There are certain situations in which the MD needs flexibility in order to present a shooting challenge.  For example, shooting one handed on a stage, or carrying an object, or dragging a dummy.  However, USPSA renders these scenarios impossible.  This is because anytime the shooter is required to do anything other than shoot with two hands, the course designer must build some elaborate device in order to prevent the squad from figuring out a way around it.  Most of the time, when presented with a prop, the shooter will go "why the hell would I do that" and just ignore it.  This leads to a higher PITA factor for stage designers, and results in a lot of stages that are very similar to each other.  Additionally, newer shooters who are technically talented but who don't understand the game as much will suffer under the current rules.  The MD should be able to more precisely specify actions that the competitors may or may not do (perhaps limited to one or two per stage so as not to make it an IDPA-fest).  If I put together a match and I want you to carry that ammo can, there shouldn't be a debate over whether or not it's "worth it."

Gayming is part of the sport.  If stage designers get butt hurt by it then build better stages that can't be gamed.  USPSA shooters are always going to look for a better/faster way to shoot a COF.  Designing a stage properly is also part of the sport, but for the most part I find stages that force you to do one thing or another the same as everyone else are fucking dumb.

 

-We should move entirely to the Classic targets.  This is because we are not shooting defensively.  We are shooting a sport.  What do we need the heads for?  A lucky A zone hit?  Yes, it is for PC reasons.  However, we need to present ourselves as professional competitors.  Torso targets send a confusing message to the media when we're wearing Salomons and colorful jerseys and running around out there.  Yes, our skills are very useful for defense, but that is not our objective as sportsmen.  Classic targets retain all the difficulty and none of the negative connotations.  

Pussy.

 

-Switch the Nationals back to Las Vegas every now and then.  Look, Barry and Frostproof are nice ranges.  Also, the Nationals there have been run very professionally and my hat is off to the match staff.  However, I can't take my wife to Barry or Frostproof.  Quincy at least has some stuff to do, but Frostproof is in the middle of nowhere.  Additionally, Pacific Time Zone shooters have to get up at the equivalent of 4:30am (Barry) or 3:30am (Frostproof) to shoot the match.  Some of you who are unable to sleep the night before a match should doubly appreciate this.  Las Vegas has rocks and ricochets and is hotter than the surface of the sun, but it's centrally located, easy and cheap to get to, and gee-whiz, there's actually some nightlife.  When I shoot a match, I'm on vacation.  I want to go see Le Reve with my family and wear a blazer.  

I don't care but wanted to write something here anyway.

 

Oh, and one more for good measure:

 

-We need to change the popper calibration rule.  It is honestly the stupidest thing in the world when a competitor gets a clean hit in or above the calibration zone, and the popper does not fall.  Then the ROs have to go out and do a little dance and follow the procedure.  The guy hit the damn thing, and it didn't go down.  We chrono at all major matches.  The RO should be allowed to call range equipment failure if the popper doesn't drop.  Additionally, if there's a clear hit on a painted target, it should be an automatic reshoot.  If the shooter hits it again and it falls- then too bad.

I've been fucked by poppers like anyone else.  I think the best way is to check the damn things after each shooter and make sure they aren't getting any heavier as the day goes on.

Have at it guys.



#39 slemmo

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Posted 21 September 2015 - 01:00 PM

The whole get rid of metric targets because floppy heads is stupid. Have you classic loving goons ever shot a match in the rain with turtle targets? They fucking blow, the whole damn target curls up.

 

There is a place in the world where water proof targets are made, it's sheer genius.


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#40 Vagetarian

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Posted 21 September 2015 - 01:49 PM

I know, fuck Canada, but here's an outline of what they do, before you can shoot sactioned matches.

http://www.ipsc-cana...g/training.html

The course may vary slightly from province to province - in Ontario it used to be 4hrs of classroom (Friday evening) and two full days on the range (Sat&Sun)

Fuck Canada. Do you want their gun regulations too??? That shit is MANDATORY and is yet another fucking hoop to jump through just to shoot a couple hundred rounds. Oh yeah I forgot, FUCK CANADA!!!

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You're all a bunch of fucking idiots and retards!






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