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#61 Sweet T

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 11:27 AM

There's nothing that says the major/minor divisions must be PF-neutral.

 

There is no duty upon the rules-makers of the .org to "level the playing field" for sub-optimal caliber or equipment choices.

 

In fact, isn't that the source of all the consternation over Carry/Production Optics?

 

At the end of the day, in any equipment-driven sport, the burden lies with the competitor to choose the right equipment for the job, including what they perceive to be the most advantageous equipment for their chosen division.  

 

If you want to play in limited or open, it's pretty clear you need to be shooting major.  



#62 MNshooter

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 12:00 PM


At the end of the day, in any equipment-driven sport, the burden lies with the competitor to choose the right equipment for the job, including what they perceive to be the most advantageous equipment for their chosen division. .


This. You should cross post this to the re-shooting classifier thread where it also applies to re-shoots.

#63 GuruOfGuns

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 01:38 PM

What would the Doodie mind figure the average PF of the popular 9mm carry ammo would be? 150? So if you're arguing the "practical" side, that being 9mm is just as effective as the larger calibers then this must be taken in consideration too. So the minor shooters are getting a bit of a break as it is. But also are the Major shooters since the Major PF went down to 165 to allow the Tanfoglios to get thru a stage without changing slide stop pins. 

 

All of which has nothing to do with actual USPSA competition, just an example of how twisted the rules can get when you try to mix in "realistic" stuff with a game. We have the same problem with PFs that we do with the target scoring zones and the major minor scoring patterns. And I have to add the stupid holster rules, if there is anything stupid about USPSA it's the holster rules.  I can't leave out rules that make it easier for IDPA shooters to cross over, fuck that.  It's all been shuffled to please one group and then compromise with another, in the end it doesn't make much sense but works ok, proof.....just visit a club on a weekend and you'll see folks shooting and having a good time. What never changes is one side or the other always clamoring for a change they think will give them an advantage.


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#64 StrongHandOnly

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 02:10 PM

I just think that shooters that shoot Limited in 9 minor should be able to use 170mm mags. This would allow more choices and would close that competitive gap a little more. I think it would be a plus for the sport.

#65 GuanoLoco

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 02:20 PM

Who Shoots Lim Minor and Why?

  • L2+ competitors because they failed to make major @ Chrono
  • L1 3-gunners because they aren't making minor PF anyhow and frankly don't care
  • Gabe White because baller junk-carrying face shooter
  • StrongHandOnly because obvious
  • Noobs that have a 9mm and need to fill up their 3 stock magazines to finish a 32 round field course
  • Insert your answer here....

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#66 Sweet T

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 02:27 PM

 would close that competitive gap a little more. 

 

I don't think it would make a lick of difference.

 

Major scoring is the source of the inequity in limited, not mag capacity.


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#67 GuanoLoco

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 02:34 PM

I concur that the scoring is the issue, not the mag capacity. 

 

I don't know if it is practical, but there should probably be a handicap penalty applied to major, or bonus applies to minor based on analytics/results from averaged 'top competitors' at major matches.

 

Assuming of course that you can find any top competitors intentionally shooting Lim Minor with real Minor PF ammo (not 164 PF) at major matches.


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#68 Sprewell

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 02:37 PM

Fuckin right I have some skin in this argument. Notice my user name.

 

It sucks that you have a messed up hand or arm.  Shit happens.  Have you considered bullseye?

 

Not one single thing in this life is fair as far as I have seen.



#69 Sweet T

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 02:56 PM

 

I don't know if it is practical, but there should probably be a handicap penalty applied to major, or bonus applies to minor based on analytics/results from averaged 'top competitors' at major matches.

 

 

 

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#70 GuanoLoco

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 03:06 PM

326.gif

 

 

...Assuming of course that you can find any top competitors intentionally shooting Lim Minor with real Minor PF ammo (not 164 PF) at major matches.

 

It is an amusing yet moot point as I think finding the appropriate Lim Minor data points is unpossible. 

 

How many supersquad or even L3+ Lim Minor shooters are even close to being competitive with equivalent major shooters?


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#71 Conspiracy Brother

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 03:16 PM

Lets just shoot airsoft.



#72 Mr_White

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 03:19 PM

What would the Doodie mind figure the average PF of the popular 9mm carry ammo would be? 150?


I think you're mostly looking at the 140s and low 150s. The hottest lot of 124gr +p gold dot I've seen was 162. I think 140 to low 150s for most defensive/duty loads.
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#73 Vagetarian

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 04:20 PM

I've got a buddy who shoots Limited minor, in .40, out of his Edge.  His gun doesn't even move with his loads and he hits mostly A's, mostly fast.  He likes it.  I think this was covered here, http://www.doodiepro...ed +minor +cool, but let's rehash it with the newbs.  I have decided that I really can't stand shooting ANY Production guns.  DA is stupid.  Strikers are stupid.  Plastic is stupid.  Production is stupid's dumb cousin.  You can load bunny farts in .40 minor and if you can aim, you can score.  It's not all about 9mm.  


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#74 GuruOfGuns

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 04:47 PM

What I'd like to say is just shoot the gun you like the most or maybe add the qualifier also the gun you shoot best. Figure out where it fits best and go for it. What anyone else does is irrelevant in this respect. Just pick the gun and the division and shoot it, don't expect the sport to change because you as an individual feel like you're at a disadvantage because of your own choices. I like to shoot them all, haven't shot revo in ages, and Production is growing on me, I like the basic principal but it's fallen into it's own equipment race. That is strange thing for me because I have always had the newest and greatest in all the other divisions, pretty much embraced the equipment race once I accepted the hi cap red dot thing was here to stay.


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#75 Mr_White

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 05:33 PM

What I'd like to say is just shoot the gun you like the most or maybe add the qualifier also the gun you shoot best. Figure out where it fits best and go for it. What anyone else does is irrelevant in this respect. Just pick the gun and the division and shoot it, don't expect the sport to change because you as an individual feel like you're at a disadvantage because of your own choices.


Hell yes, couldn't agree more!
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#76 StrongHandOnly

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 05:36 PM

I don't want to change the minor scoring. I just think choosing to shoot 9 Minor in Limited is "over" penalized. Because of this, No super squaders shoot Limited in 9 Minor. If we aren't going to let 9 Minor in Limited be competitive, then let's get rid of it. If a shooter fails to make PF then hit him with the minor scoring. Don't let 9mm be used for Limited. If we are going to let 9mm be used for Limited, make it competitive.

#77 StrongHandOnly

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 05:41 PM

It sucks that you have a messed up hand or arm.  Shit happens.  Have you considered bullseye?
 
Not one single thing in this life is fair as far as I have seen.


Hahahahahahaa! That is the truth. Bullseye is gay. See above post. I also think making Limited 9 Minor competitive just adds to our sport. I don't want any special rules put in place because my hand and arm is not usable for this purpose. If you know me, drawing attention to myself is the last thing on this earth that I want. Life is never fair. I say that to my kids all the time. This topic is just something I have noticed after shooting this sport for 5 years. I think we can do better as a club. I don't think we should put any extra rules in place for people that can't meet a standard. I simply noticed that 9 minor is not competitive in Limited. Change it or get rid of it. As it stands now, it is stupid.

#78 Sweet T

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 05:59 PM

I don't want to change the minor scoring. I just think choosing to shoot 9 Minor in Limited is "over" penalized. Because of this, No super squaders shoot Limited in 9 Minor. If we aren't going to let 9 Minor in Limited be competitive, then let's get rid of it. If a shooter fails to make PF then hit him with the minor scoring. Don't let 9mm be used for Limited. If we are going to let 9mm be used for Limited, make it competitive.

 

How does it hurt anyone else if a dude wants to shoot lim minor?  What if said dude doesn't care if he's "competitive"?

 

Why do you hate Mr. White?


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#79 Mr_White

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 06:02 PM

If we aren't going to let 9 Minor in Limited be competitive, then let's get rid of it.


I know that's not the only option you mentioned, but fuck that. If they aren't going to make it competitive, you could just not shoot it.
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#80 Sweet T

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 06:12 PM

I know that's not the only option you mentioned, but fuck that. If they aren't going to make it competitive, you could just not shoot it.

 

OP's argument is totally schizophrenic.  He starts by talking about totally revamping limited to make it more accomodating to minor scoring; adding more mag capacity, etc. 

 

Conclusion?  Ban everybody from shooting minor in limited.  Derp.






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