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US Government sues L3 Communications/EOTech for fraud


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#1 GuanoLoco

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 09:36 AM

http://soldiersystem...-eotech-sights/

Fascinating review of the EOTech. Good time to quickly sell off your EOTechs before word gets out. LAV makes some brief showings in the comments.

http://soldiersystem...-Inc.-et-al.pdf
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#2 poopgiggle

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 09:50 AM

hBogxMk.png

If the anti-gun lobby ever discovers pro-gun blog/youtube comments, the fight is over.

#3 thermobollocks

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 09:55 AM

I'm holding out for cheap ones 'cause I don't give a fuck how they work at -22 or whatever



#4 poopgiggle

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 10:06 AM

I'm holding out for cheap ones 'cause I don't give a fuck how they work at -22 or whatever


but then your ar won't be mil-spec and

#5 Larry Costa

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 10:25 AM

I have a 20+ year old Aimpoint, their is no equal.

 

Eotch....never heard of her.

 

But looking at their "quality", this isn't a surprise.

 

You either have an Aimpoint or you need one.


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#6 GuanoLoco

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 11:19 AM

Read the second link.

Quality issues can be addessed. This isn't just a quality issue, it is a management and integrity issue.
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#7 Woodieproject

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 11:34 AM

Eos run circles around other dots, but only because they have a circle around the dot.
Bonafide asshole

#8 dravz

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 12:51 PM

I'm holding out for cheap ones 'cause I don't give a fuck how they work at -22 or whatever


I had two that crapped out sitting in a 72 degree closet so good luck

#9 Buck Turgidson

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 05:04 PM

Anyone who says who uses the word ¨run¨ as a cool-guy substitute for ¨use¨ is a fucking tool

 

I am sick and fucking tired of this tacticool jargon.  Even if you really are tacticool, not using proper English makes you sound stupid.


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#10 peterthefish

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 06:46 PM

Quality issues can be addessed.


Apparently not! After several years of weekly meetings it doesn't appear that they ever fixed the humidity issue.

As a recovering Timmy I have an XPS on my SCAR. I plan to email them asking them for a refund or retrofit.

This isn't just a quality issue, it is a management and integrity issue.


Anyone who's worked for or with an ownership run company wouldn't be surprised by this. Starting and growing a multimillion company from scratch can be like being a parent, including the denial and refusal to see the flaws in your offspring.

#11 Cranky Gunsmith

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 10:14 PM

Who cares? The reticules on those things look like shit anyway. I've seen pictures of bigfoot in better focus than those things.

#12 Moustache6

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 10:34 PM

Until the testing protocols and data are made available I'm taking the zero drift issue with a small grain of salt.  I think this is a reflection of the large amount of defective sights pumped out by L3 and pressed into service by the GOV.  Seems just a little far fetched that 100% of all sights made by EOTech have been afflicted with wandering zero and humidity degradation issues, if that's true then the item I have must be a true Unicorn.
 

You can expect all of the following things to occur with nearly all weapon & sighting systems (iron, magnified, red-dot):

  • Altitude induced zero drift (a zero performed at 240ft will not be the same if you re-confirm at 6,000+ above sea level)
  • Thermal zero drift (can occur with as little as a 25 degree swing in temperature, more pronounced effect when switching environments / seasons)
  • Changes in ammunition (e.g. lot / batch, manufacturer, bullet weight / type)


#13 poopgiggle

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 11:32 PM

but its the internet and i want to be mad

#14 Buck Turgidson

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 07:18 AM

 

  • Altitude induced zero drift (a zero performed at 240ft will not be the same if you re-confirm at 6,000+ above sea level)
  • Thermal zero drift (can occur with as little as a 25 degree swing in temperature, more pronounced effect when switching environments / seasons)

 

I'm sure you know this, but just be perfectly clear, external ballistics are the significant reason why zero changes with those two factors. 

 

The sight system can be perfectly stable, and yet...............


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#15 Trigger Warning

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 07:42 AM

That lawsuit is worth reading; disregard all the lawyer talk and consider only the quoted literature from EOTech, the quoted specs, and EOTech emails quoted indicating the significant departure from specs when performance was actually tested.

 

For temperature, EOTech promised a stable zero across all spec temperatures and a large contract required no more than 3 MOA shift.  MOA was found to shift around 12 MOA at 32 degrees and 20 MOA at 5 degrees, which are not "extreme" temperatures and not the -40 EOTech said they could stand.  

 

For humidity, they said it could operate indefinitely at 95% and was waterproof to 66 feet.  But their own testing found the nitrogen leaked under ambient conditions and even normal operating ambients introduced enough moisture to cause increased battery draw.  

 

It's not a wonder it was settled immediately.  It appears that L3 had even set aside a reserve the anticipated government request for damages which is pretty much a complete surrender.  Also, that settlement indicates it was all negotiated in advance with L3 and the government.  Not sure why then they had to file the lawsuit; maybe for the judge approval so the government actors can show independent approval of the settlement figure and terms for various contracting reasons.

 

EOTech will have a new CEO pretty quickly.  The lawsuit gives L3 that face saving measure by basically blaming the CEO for overruling everyone else's desire the disclose the issues.


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#16 Trigger Warning

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 07:53 AM

BREAKING:  You read it here on Doodie first.  The actual settlement, which is somewhat remarkable because it doesn't have the normal disclaimers but rather has L3 admit they defrauded the government.  The CEO also admits he knew the problems and continued to market the sight.

 

http://www.justice.g...796026/download

 

Also at least they've been working on it.  Tidbit on their website says the site will experience thermal shift but should not exceed 5MOA.  So that's an improvement.

 

Looks like they may have their lawyers helping write up the faq's too.  From trumpeting parallax free performance to this muddy statement on the website:  "All EOTech sights exhibit a varying degree of parallax depending on operating conditions."

 

http://www.eotechinc...and-support/faq


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#17 Moustache6

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 12:11 PM

The thermal drift for the zero on the EOTech is listed in the lawsuit as 2 to 6-MOA for rifle/carbine sights, and 6 to 12MOA for grenade launcher & HMG sights.

As much as 12 to 20MOA in Parallax shift exhibited during cold weather (32f/0c to 5f/-15c), according to the lawsuit.

 

Without full disclosure of the testing protocols and test results over the years it's impossible to know what percentage of sights are afflicted with these issues.  The fanboys will try to convince themselves and others that these failures represent a small % of the units in circulation, the haters will claim that ever EOTech that has been made is afflicted with these problems.

High failure rates and defective performance issues related to humidity and wandering zero have been known for some time, in my experience while common it does not manifest in 100% of the sights.  I still have the same EOTech (Rev E iirc) I started used back in 2003.  It's still running strong and problem free after more than a decade of hard use & abuse across the globe.  I'll continue using it until it starts to fail or completely goes tits up.  I've been satisfied with mine but I don't go around recommending EOTech's as getting a good one is a bit like winning the lotto.


Murica.jpg

 

As a general rule of thumb EOTechs (and for the most part all L3 products) are not dependable, but if you're lucky enough to have confirmed you are in possession of a flawless EOTech then you might as well keep it till it fails/dies.
 



#18 Sprewell

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 12:19 PM

L3 admit they defrauded the government.  The CEO also admits he knew the problems and continued to market the sight.

 

 

 

 

Is the CEO getting prison time?  Bullshit if not.



#19 Trigger Warning

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 01:40 PM

Is the CEO getting prison time? Bullshit if not.


Probably not because no justice. Of course the settlement would not impede that course of action and could assist it. But stealing millions and beating competitors through fraudulent claims pales next to a shoplifter or guy with a blunt.

But that settlement is evidence and makes a civil class action a slam dunk. Personal suits too should anyone feel inclined.

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#20 Moustache6

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 02:18 PM

Jail time for the CEO and loss of government contracts for L3 would be the common sense thing to do...


therefore the .gov won't do anything


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