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DNROI Term Limits


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#41 Mike Foley

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 02:11 PM

Production is THE success story of USPSA in the last ten years. The hesitation to change it is understandable. It represents different things to different people. Some think it is a stock division, others a carry gun division, others an inexpensive place to start, and others a DA/SA, DAO, or striker fired race gun division. It is all of those things. The people who are the best at it, aren't arguing about holster placement. They also aren't arguing about the weight or trigger pull of different platforms.

I'm not sure I could find a competitor's hip bone if I wanted to. I'm fairly uncertain where mine is, but I can find some bony thing through my fat to keep my holster behind (and defend, though I've never had to). It's a lot like hands relaxed naturally at your sides (someone put up that photo, I triple dog dare you).

We have a few, arguably meaningless, subjective things remaining in our sport that create almost no real advantage. We argue our interpretations and opinions to the polarizing point that we can never agree. It is a shame there are only a few hours each week to play the game, and way more hours to argue about it.

We have to have a clear way to determine legality to protect competitors from subjectivity and being moved to Open, though we've made it this far somehow. I've asked DNROI how we can resolve this once and for all, within our own rules and bylaws. It'll take a while, unless everyone is OK with a ruling. Have I missed anything? Are we arguing position, protocol, or power?
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#42 Vagetarian

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 02:59 PM

Production is dumb. Shoot Limited and never have to deal with this inane pedantic postulation.
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#43 peterthefish

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 03:10 PM

Protocol.

#44 peterthefish

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 03:16 PM

I get it.

I know that's how people have decided to interpret it.

I just can't find any - ANY - support for that interpretation, in our rulebook ....or in real life, for that matter.

If I draw a line tangent to the door of my car, draw a line perpendicular to that tangent, and then stand behind that line... am I standing behind my car?

Using your car analogy, the green area should be the only legal area for placement in production.

7d46b23c7756874015a98481465f39fd.jpg

ETA: also, if we define part of hip used as a reference as the iliac crest, then using your analogy we're saying behind the car means behind the side mirror.
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#45 LeadChucker

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 03:16 PM

Production is dumb. Shoot Limited and never have to deal with this inane pedantic postulation.


You're an injured fuck who is incapable of shooting, you have no say ;)
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#46 Chuck Anderson

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 03:17 PM

Do you have something you can point to that says "behind" means something other than.... um... "behind"?


Over a decade shooting National and even a couple world championships, dozens of L3 matches, countless L1 and L2 matches, discussions with multiple RMI's. and RM's, multiple RO classes and I have never once heard the current description. And all with gear that apparently was not legal. But yeah, whatever. Just makes me glad I have better things to do than shoot USPSA now.
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#47 ZackJones

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 03:23 PM

I am changing mine because I don't want the mental distraction that would result from an RO asking me to move my gear because they saw the picture. Might not happen but I would rather eliminate the possibility all together.


That's understandable. How far have you moved your mag pouches?
 
 

Am I Grizzly Adams?


Yes, sorry for not using your proper username but I posted while traveling in the car and couldn't look you up so make sure I used the right name. I figured everyone would know you based on your avatar. Now that you've moved your gear and have been dry firing with it in the new position has it been a difficult transition for you? 
 

(someone put up that photo, I triple dog dare you).


Just like in the Christmas Story movie you violated protocol by skipping double dog dare you. Come on Mike follow the process :).
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#48 nwhpfan

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 03:41 PM

Yes, sorry for not using your proper username but I posted while traveling in the car and couldn't look you up so make sure I used the right name. I figured everyone would know you based on your avatar. Now that you've moved your gear and have been dry firing with it in the new position has it been a difficult transition for you? 
 
 

 

Yes it has been difficult.  Because for the last 5 years I have been practicing one way.  But the uncertainty at this point is what bothers me most.  Do I put all this effort into rewiring the circuits only to have nothing happen?  If nobody else changes now.....I'm at a disadvantage because I'm spending my time relearning instead of getting better.

 

For Mike, I'd like to go back to when their were no problems.  To me, and honestly, every production shooter I know...before the bull horns/toilet seat picture came out. 

 

Others have asked, and I'll ask too...was their an uproar?  Was their problems in USPSA, at matches across the country, were RO's were having difficulty enforcing this rule?  It wasn't an issue in my area I know that for a fact.  Really....it just seemed that everyone knew one thing until NROI said something different.

 

Again, what was the issue that led to this "interpretation?"  Why is this how the rule is decided to be "interpreted?"



#49 Miculek is a Noob

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 03:53 PM

Bruce --

 

I don't think the hullabaloo over equipment placement is due to the definition of "behind" -- it's the fact that every single RO I know interpreted it the same way: Standing there like a lump of meat, take your hands and make your pointy finger touch your hip bones. The natural way of doing that results in your fingers pointing straight back through you, toward your spine, not along the bisecting parallel tangential plane of the hypotenuse, or whatever the hell the current clumsy working is. 

 

How do I know that? Well, as a competitor and RO at Single Stack and Production national matches, competitors were subject to an equipment check on the first stage, which involved lining up in formation. Everyone points at their hip bones as I described above -- no one I saw came in from the side with their fingers pointing at each other coming in from the sides.

 

Since (basically) all the ROs were interpreting the rule that way (wrong), the fact that Troy's interpretation/ruling/whatever came out the way it did left a lot of people confused/butthurt/etc.

 

I bet the RMIs were confused too, because they sure as hell aren't teaching the rules that way prior to February 2016. So once again -- now we have a bunch of both experienced and new ROs out there with the wrong information, just like we discussed in the other thread. 

 

This shakes out exactly the same way as the Start Position controversy -- everyone in the entire organization finds out (eventually, we hope) that the way everyone has always done things is wrong.... by fiat.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think Troy does a fine job as DNROI, a shitty assignment if ever there was one. So do you, and so is yours. But these matters just plain weren't handled correctly, in my opinion. I can't tell if you're being deliberately obtuse about these rule things or not, so hopefully this clears up what I think is the position of many people who are raising a fuss.


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#50 Mike Foley

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 05:01 PM

Protocol.


Cool. That was actually the answer I hoped for. I'm back to HQ this week, but I'll definitely give this some thought, research, and conversation. Nobody wants to be confusing, arbitrary, or taken as if every conversation is a ruling. We tend to drop comments and go away, and then the fun begins. We will be more careful because of this conversation.

#51 (Sh)ItJustGotReal

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 05:04 PM

The people who are the best at it, aren't arguing about holster placement. 

 

That's because the people that are the best don't get hassled like ordinary joes do.  

 

Want evidence, look at the photos of Max Michel's first mag pouch placement at last year's Production Nats.


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#52 ToddKS

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 05:15 PM



That's understandable. How far have you moved your mag pouches?


Basically my first mag is where my second mag used to be.

#53 peterthefish

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 05:22 PM

Cool. That was actually the answer I hoped for. I'm back to HQ this week, but I'll definitely give this some thought, research, and conversation. Nobody wants to be confusing, arbitrary, or taken as if every conversation is a ruling. We tend to drop comments and go away, and then the fun begins. We will be more careful because of this conversation.


I'd hate to see casual rules conversations stifled because of this. But I think the level of guidance given (use of diagrams) and vocal backlash made an official interpretation / ruling appropriate here. People would complain, but there's a process to then amend the rules (or perhaps modify the ruling) if that's what's appropriate.

I think in this case where there's no official ruling but DNROI supports an objectively defined interpretation, the informal interpretation becomes a de facto ruling. I certainly wouldn't want to show up at a major with gear out of compliance with the diagram.

I'm also a pedantic asshole who between engineering and now largely contract based work has an almost autistic love for rules and procedure. So
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#54 Unibrain

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 05:29 PM

Cool. That was actually the answer I hoped for. I'm back to HQ this week, but I'll definitely give this some thought, research, and conversation. Nobody wants to be confusing, arbitrary, or taken as if every conversation is a ruling. We tend to drop comments and go away, and then the fun begins. We will be more careful because of this conversation.

 

I suggest looking at what other organizations do.  Have a formal open process for asking for questions and publish the answer.  Bruce used an example of sailing competitions and I used an example of SCCA that are workable for their organization.  I'm sure we can come up with something that is open and predictable. 



#55 Mike Foley

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 05:31 PM

I'd hate to see casual rules conversations stifled because of this. But I think the level of guidance given (use of diagrams) and vocal backlash made an official interpretation / ruling appropriate here. People would complain, but there's a process to then amend the rules (or perhaps modify the ruling) if that's what's appropriate.

I think in this case where there's no official ruling but DNROI supports an objectively defined interpretation, the informal interpretation becomes a de facto ruling. I certainly wouldn't want to show up at a major with gear out of compliance with the diagram.

I'm also a pedantic asshole who between engineering and now largely contract based work has an almost autistic love for rules and procedure. So


I wanted to like this, but I'm using the mobile version and don't know how. I considered a thumbs up emoji, but I've been told I'm not a pre-pubescent girl, so...how about an old fashioned "right on!"?

#56 GuanoLoco

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 05:35 PM

Other than Grizzly Adams how many of you have changed your gear position? I haven't and don't plan to until someone tells me it's wrong.


I moved my gear further forward. My interpretation of the rule was too conservative.
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#57 GuanoLoco

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 05:42 PM

I'd hate to see casual rules conversations stifled because of this. ...

It is good to have a formalized approach to 'rulings', whether in the form of Q&A or whatever.

I was in a department once and noticed a list tacked to wall. As I read the list I realized that wey were various things I had said in passing while visiting the department. They had captured them, ennumerated them and posted them as a list of policy directives or something.

I looked over the list and to my horror it included an item that I remembered saying purely in jest.

This is what happens when you have a person in a position of apparent authority (note I wasn't responsible for this department at the time) and insufficient formal process or review. Or ability to discern fact from jest.
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#58 Motosapiens

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 05:51 PM


The first part is what I believe is fueling the fire. You are technically correct. The rule hasn't changed on the books. Reality, however, is that now I may have an RO demand that I relocate gear on my belt from where it has always been because someone drew a picture on facebook.
 

Ok so you were cheating before and no one called you on it? Lucky you. The rule hasn't changed. the interpretation of the rule hasn't changed. You are just not ignorant anymore, so now if you put your gear in the wrong place you are a real cheater, not just a dumbass noob.


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#59 thermobollocks

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 05:58 PM

At least I only have to count to 11 to bump Production guys into Open. For Limited they have to fail the gauge.



#60 CZinSC

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 06:00 PM

Production is dumb. Shoot Limited and never have to deal with this inane pedantic postulation.


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