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Help Me Understand This


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#1 Larry Costa

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 08:54 PM

 

I have heard of this technique; I have trained with people that were taught this technique.  I don't get it...and I don't think think the guys I trained with understood it either.

 

Also, things like "surprise break" seem contrary to what other big time shooters are talking about.

 

I get the part about knowing how much you can pull before the break though..but that seems kind of a slow thing to think about?

 

Anyone done this, do this and can elaborate?


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#2 Maxamundo

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 10:34 PM

No thanks, I don't need to ND to hit the target. 



#3 slemmo

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 12:21 AM

Old school learning suitable for slow target shooting. Have no place in practical shooting. As soon as I have the target in my sight(s) I slap the trigger fast as fuck.



#4 Sad Sack

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 02:34 AM

This seems dumb, even dumber than shooting open.  So, do I "bump up against the sear", release, bump, release, bump, bump, bump, fire, release, bump, release, bump, release, ooh that was a good shot, bump, etc. all the time?  I'm thinking that this is going to affect my splits to some extent.  Also, I won't be able to talk shit to revo shooters anymore; I'll probably take longer on a field course than they do.


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#5 NickBlasta

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 03:31 AM

As I understand this technique mostly descends from square range stuff or bullseye, where the shooter probably has a fairly weak grip and usually a flinch. It's good at curing, or at least, working around a flinch, because you don't know when the gun will go off. It's not good for practical shooting because, as you mention, it's slow. But I think the video is mostly talking about using it to get a sense of when the gun will go off, which doesn't quite make sense to me. He should just be talking about gripping the gun harder.



#6 Vagetarian

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 06:20 AM

Hmmmmm...  Let's see, trigger is tooned with 1/16 of an inch of pre-travel at 2lbs break.  When should you "feel" it?


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#7 Jay870

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 06:47 AM

I'll do that with a new gun and do find it helpful for learning the trigger. Its not something that I routinely incorporate into practice unless I find myself snatching the trigger when shooting groups. 


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#8 mx5

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 06:47 AM

As mentioned, old school drill for trigger prep followed by a "surprise" break. Used for years in the world of accuracy oriented/precision shooting sports for both rifle and pistol. By contrast, the "action oriented" shooting sports generally use the "command break" trigger technique. In fact, moving from the surprise break to the command break was one of my biggest challenges when I started shooting USPSA.


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#9 waktasz

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 07:55 AM

I don't get it either, but I've never had it explained to me properly. 



#10 Doc

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 08:05 AM

"Jerk the trigger! Jerk the trigger and look like an idiot! You're not going fast enough!

The only place this "technique" has any application in any shooting sport is when you are learning where/when your trigger breaks with a new gun. Even in slow fire bullseye, you'd have to be a moron to use this "technique" in a match.
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#11 Trigger Warning

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 08:28 AM

If you want to be surprised at a shot, buy a used open gun off enos.  It should be pretty surprising if it works.


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#12 barry owens

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Posted 11 June 2016 - 05:00 PM

I had a surprise break with my sig 45 one time. Put a hydro shock through several of my wifes dressses that were hanging in the closet.



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#13 Larry Costa

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Posted 11 June 2016 - 10:09 PM

So I watched the video again and read all the comments.

 

Bruce Gray is kind of a big deal so it's not so easy to just say he's whack...

 

But I think what it comes down too is he believes a person can't knowingly take a shot without flinching, jerking, or some other pre ignition input that moves the gun off target.  So the solution is to always be surprised by it to ensure you don't adversely influence aim.

 

I think the problem I have is I've spent all my time learning how to point the gun somewhere and pull the trigger without  pre ignition influence because that's what Brian Enos said in his book is all that's needed to be a good shooter.


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#14 ZachJ

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 12:18 AM

So I watched the video again and read all the comments.

 

Bruce Gray is kind of a big deal so it's not so easy to just say he's whack...

 

But I think what it comes down too is he believes a person can't knowingly take a shot without flinching, jerking, or some other pre ignition input that moves the gun off target.  So the solution is to always be surprised by it to ensure you don't adversely influence aim.

 

I think the problem I have is I've spent all my time learning how to point the gun somewhere and pull the trigger without  pre ignition influence because that's what Brian Enos said in his book is all that's needed to be a good shooter.

When I first started shooting handguns, in 2014, even with a totally relaxed grip I had a trigger jerk on at least 1/2 of my shots. Such that I would jerk the gun enough @ 25yds to pull the shot off a standard sized piece of paper.

 

Found that if I did the whole surprise break thing I heard about, and I didn't truly know when the gun was going to go off, and I kept the sights lined up, I could hit where I aimed, every single time I do so. Problem was that I was involved in practical shooting, and that shit is too slow, the easier thing to do was to just stop jerking the trigger, and make my trigger finger move independently of everything else(Most of the time).

 

Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't suggest ever the whole surprise break type of trigger press to anybody. I'd just suggest to them to stop jerking the trigger period, and deal with their inconsistent aim until they did so. It's an easy solution to a problem, but in the long run especially for a sport where speed is a factor, it limits a person's growth.


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#15 Leroy

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 05:53 AM

Most true suprise shots I have made scared the shit out of me and my grip loosens and the shot goes high.

#16 Leroy

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 05:59 AM

There are National champion static bullseye and highpower dudes that say suprise shots don't work for them (David Tubb and Brian Zinn) they also condone gripping the shit out of gun which is contrary to a lot bullseye instruction as well. Just like every top USPSA shooter has slight differences in how they approach our sport.
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#17 Nimrod

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 06:08 AM

Gunsmiths should leaving shooting to professionals and get back to work in their shop. 



#18 Buck Turgidson

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 09:39 AM

There are National champion static bullseye and highpower dudes that say suprise shots don't work for them (David Tubb and Brian Zinn) they also condone gripping the shit out of gun which is contrary to a lot bullseye instruction as well. Just like every top USPSA shooter has slight differences in how they approach our sport.

 

Having been one of those static HP dudes for about 15 years I'm going to say you have to be able to execute both a surprise break and a "on command" break equally well on demand.

 

While the rapid fire stages in HP are painfully slow compared to practical rifle shooting, the accuracy demanded and the mandatory reload in a set time stage do not allow you the luxury of dressing up every shot and slowly pressing for a surprise break.  You have to drive the sights to the target with a rock solid position and break the shot on command when an acceptable sight picture that yields a ten is obtained.

 

The 200 yd standing stage is another where many use a command break for the trigger.  My offhand was never solid enough that I could sit there patiently and break a surprise shot without ending up in the 7 ring or worse.  When I saw a 10, I had to make that trigger break (without jerking it) RFN.

 

During the 600 yd prone stage you can use whatever break you want.


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#19 GuruOfGuns

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 07:27 AM

It is an old school training drill, it's to teach trigger control and not something you do at a match or while shooting, it's a drill. I think what you whippersnappers are missing is that before youtube videos and all the other training aids the majority of people showing up at a shooting class had terrible flinches. These days the information is out there and easy to get so most students have a pretty good grasp to start with but if someone was wanking the trigger this drill might get them on track.  

 

Bruce has a very respectable record as a shooter. 


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#20 Just Some Random Hoser

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 10:04 AM

 

I have heard of this technique; I have trained with people that were taught this technique.  I don't get it...and I don't think think the guys I trained with understood it either.

 

Also, things like "surprise break" seem contrary to what other big time shooters are talking about.

 

I get the part about knowing how much you can pull before the break though..but that seems kind of a slow thing to think about?

 

Anyone done this, do this and can elaborate?

 

When he was demonstrating the trigger take up, it looks like a sloppy, mushy trigger to me.....

The take up in my CZ in SA is like nothing....

Thoughts?






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