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Is it cheating to accept a time you know is wrong?


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#1 Motosapiens

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 05:47 PM

So at the columbia cascade sectional last week, I was shooting with a friend and rival in the same division, and after the 3-hit-per-target stage I was feeling pretty good based on the time and hit factor I saw. But then I compared notes with a master on our squad, and it seemed unlikely that my time was correct. I checked the video, and it was clear that my last shots had not been recorded by the timer. Since I want to be able to look myself in the eye without disgust, I brought it to the attention of the RO's, and reshot the stage. It didn't go perfectly, but it was similar to the score I should have gotten the first time, and it was the actual score I earned. 

 

Would I have been a cheating douchebag if I had just said 'The RO and I signed the scoresheet, so that's the score' ? Would it be different if I were a big name pro sponsored by a big gun company like Sig or Kel-tec or RIA ?

 

I felt like I made the ONLY decision I could live with, but now I'm starting to wonder if that is how big time famous shooters work. I'm pretty sure Nick Yanutola(sp) would do the honorable thing, but he's just a golfer, not a famous shooter.


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#2 peterthefish

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 06:07 PM

Only if it's worse than your actual time.

#3 CrappyShooter

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 06:09 PM

Back in the old days, when everything was on paper, I used to have shooters see discrepensies with the times posted.  All due to data entry problem typing into EZ Win.

 

If it was against the shooter, they ALWAYS said something.  I probably saw 2-3 guys per year though, come up with a correction that went against them, even if though it would cost them.  These guys sleep well at night.

 

None of the second group were top tier shooters, and maybe more attention was paid to the top shooter scores as they were entered.

 

I seriously doubt that too many, if any of the top shooters would knowingly allow an incorrect time to stand.  They are all so close on a stage that someone who beat the other top 10 GMs by 2 seconds on a stage wouldn't throw up a flag immediately.  Way too many people are videoing them as well and the outcry against them isn't worth trying to cheat.



#4 dsa

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 06:13 PM

Technically there isn't a rule that allows an RO to grant a re-shoot under those circumstances is there?  As your friend and rival I would have been fine had the original run stood.  I would consider it good karma coming back to you.  


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#5 AEuropa

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 06:17 PM

This conversation came up at Nationals while we were waiting to start shooting a stage and the CRO told us that the exact same thing happened on his stage earlier in the day. A young guy reviewed video and stated that his time was wrong and asked for a reshoot. That's some major honesty there. I don't know who the shooter was, but he's got my respect.
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#6 Motosapiens

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 06:28 PM

This conversation came up at Nationals while we were waiting to start shooting a stage and the CRO told us that the exact same thing happened on his stage earlier in the day. A young guy reviewed video and stated that his time was wrong and asked for a reshoot. That's some major honesty there. I don't know who the shooter was, but he's got my respect.

that's very interesting. I wonder if any other shooters had the same problem on that stage. very curious indeed......


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#7 Motosapiens

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 06:35 PM

Technically there isn't a rule that allows an RO to grant a re-shoot under those circumstances is there?  As your friend and rival I would have been fine had the original run stood.  I would consider it good karma coming back to you.  

 

as your friendly neighborhood CRO, it appears to me that the RO can grant a reshoot, but can't order one if the competitor is unwilling, for example because he's a big name sponsored shooter by keltec or sig or hi-point and results are more important to him than honor, even if he has kids that are learning to shoot and will one day be dismayed to find out their father cheats. I can only imagine what tom bradys kids would be like if his wife wasn't really a man.

 

 

9.7.4 A score sheet signed by both a competitor and a Range Officer is conclusive evidence that the course of fire has been completed, and that the time, scores and penalties recorded on the score sheet are accurate and uncontested. The signed score sheet is deemed to be a definitive document. It may only be changed to add penalties under Rule 8.6.2, or to correct arithmetical errors, or by mutual consent of the competitor and the originating Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision. Changes are defined as modifications to the score sheet after both parties have signed off on the score sheet.

 

I totally disagree with your other point tho. It's good karma if Carl hits a calibration shot high on a popper that everyone knows is fucked. It's cheating if you knowingly accept a score that is not yours... plain and simple.  Admittedly it gets dicier and harder to identify if it's only 25% of the stage time rather than 40-50% like in the instance we were involved in. Also not all big time shooters have access to video, or tools like shot coach to verify the time is wrong. I can see not realizing the time was wrong initially in such a case.

 

For example, I was videoing Tim Herron (the world's nicest guy, btw, and sponsored by Sig, a company that makes great guns and sponsors reputable and talented shooters) and he had a mike on a blazing fast stage. He was somewhat incredulous and thought it might have been a double, but I showed him my vid and we could clearly see him pulling off the target before the shot broke. Without that video to review, he might have wondered....


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#8 peterthefish

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 06:40 PM

I can only imagine what tom bradys kids would be like if his wife wasn't really a man.


The same Tom Brady that crushed the opposition with "properly inflated" balls? Not for nothing but the Brady witch hunt is up there with the real champ butt hurt.

But it's ok maybe one day your market will turn out a franchise worthy of Yankees levels of hate.
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#9 Motosapiens

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 06:42 PM

The same Tom Brady that crushed the opposition with "properly inflated" balls? Not for nothing but the Brady witch hunt is up there with the real champ butt hurt.

If his balls were properly inflated, he wouldn't be married to a man, or be a prancing little homo. He probably wears capri pants.


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#10 peterthefish

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 07:05 PM

If his balls were properly inflated, he wouldn't be married to a man, or be a prancing little homo. He probably wears capri pants.


So you're a Denver fan then?

#11 Motosapiens

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 07:07 PM

So you're a Denver fan then?

Wut? I like the patriots, I just hate tom brady, same as the pope, mother teresa and putin.


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#12 busdriver

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 07:07 PM

Capri pants? Jesus man, that's just mean.

#13 Ben

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 07:45 PM

So at the columbia cascade sectional last week, I was shooting with a friend and rival in the same division, and after the 3-hit-per-target stage I was feeling pretty good based on the time and hit factor I saw. But then I compared notes with a master on our squad, and it seemed unlikely that my time was correct. I checked the video, and it was clear that my last shots had not been recorded by the timer. Since I want to be able to look myself in the eye without disgust, I brought it to the attention of the RO's, and reshot the stage. It didn't go perfectly, but it was similar to the score I should have gotten the first time, and it was the actual score I earned. 

 

Would I have been a cheating douchebag if I had just said 'The RO and I signed the scoresheet, so that's the score' ? Would it be different if I were a big name pro sponsored by a big gun company like Sig or Kel-tec or RIA ?

 

I felt like I made the ONLY decision I could live with, but now I'm starting to wonder if that is how big time famous shooters work. I'm pretty sure Nick Yanutola(sp) would do the honorable thing, but he's just a golfer, not a famous shooter.


I feel like this thread is a shot at Max... but then again I could be paranoid.



#14 donkey_punch

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 07:52 PM

I got +7 added to my time at the last match I shot (local). Compared stage video where you can clearly hear RO say 18.62 and match results say 25.36

I wanted to let the MD know but also didn't want to look like a cunt trying to get first place C class in L10 either.

#15 nwhpfan

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 07:54 PM

It's cheating if you know the timer didn't pick up the shots and you sign the score sheet anyway.  The shooter is a dirt bag if they knowingly sign the score sheet and stay silent.  If at any time during the match or arbitration the shooter becomes aware they need to tell the RM so they can re-shoot.

 

RO's should do everything to ensure mistakes like this don't happen.  If it is caused by RO carelessness and/or not taking their duties seriously enough, that RO should be counseled by the RM and removed if their behavior doesn't change.

 

What is unfortunate is that video evidence can't be used to cause a re-shot.  

 

And it's also unfortunate if the issue is discovered after the arbitration period because then nothing can be done.  The scores are final.  Nobody want's to win or lose because the RO wasn't doing their job.


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#16 redrider

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 07:56 PM

If a mistake is made, work to correct it. The shooting community is small and we all only have soo much credit in the Bank of Integrity. We all know who has spent all theirs at times.

 

It may not be cheating but I'd find it something that shows a lack of honesty and integrity if a person were to accept a score not theirs, to their favor or not.

 

Also, was it the type of stage where it would be easy for the RO and timer to not be in the right spot to pick up the last shots off and on over and over through the day?



#17 Miculek is a Noob

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 07:59 PM

They are all so close on a stage that someone who beat the other top 10 GMs by 2 seconds on a stage wouldn't throw up a flag immediately.  

 

What if it was Alex? He's 2 seconds faster than the rest of the super squad. Maybe he's just using some new fangled quantum-sonic ammo that fools the shot timer?



#18 peterthefish

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 08:07 PM

I got +7 added to my time at the last match I shot (local). Compared stage video where you can clearly hear RO say 18.62 and match results say 25.36

I wanted to let the MD know but also didn't want to look like a cunt trying to get first place C class in L10 either.


Phil?

Seriously though, Strader got +7'd at Area 7. I think he was able to pull a "I'm Phil Strader - check the timer, there was a 7 second gap between my last two splits". Not sure if it was before or after score sheets were signed.

I guess what I'm saying is, if it's good enough for El Pres Emeritus it's good enough for a C Class scrub.

#19 Sweet T

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 08:18 PM

Someone I know at 2014 production nats shot a stage and was the stage winner. He just thought he had a smoking run. Well turns out, on the ride home while checking results, the next closest finisher was JJ at 90℅. So this guy checks his video and sure enough, the RO did not follow him into the shooting area far enough to pick up his last several shots. His time was off by like 7 seconds.

By this time he was hours away on the road home. My buddy calls Troy who says essentially, nothing he can do. Either let it stand or eat a zero. He thinks about the match implications. I mean this is nationals. No telling how his stage win will affect stage points, match points, and the final results. So he tells Troy to issue him a zero.

That was an integrity move. Although I still think it's bullshit he had to eat a stage zero that he didn't earn.

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#20 Alfred Salveti

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 08:34 PM

Someone I know at 2014 production nats shot a stage and was the stage winner. He just thought he had a smoking run. Well turns out, on the ride home while checking results, the next closest finisher was JJ at 90℅. So this guy checks his video and sure enough, the RO did not follow him into the shooting area far enough to pick up his last several shots. His time was off by like 7 seconds.

By this time he was hours away on the road home. My buddy calls Troy who says essentially, nothing he can do. Either let it stand or eat a zero. He thinks about the match implications. I mean this is nationals. No telling how his stage win will affect stage points, match points, and the final results. So he tells Troy to issue him a zero.

That was an integrity move. Although I still think it's bullshit he had to eat a stage zero that he didn't earn.

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WTF, they changed the scores after the arbitration period?


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