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Is it cheating to accept a time you know is wrong?


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#41 Motosapiens

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 07:10 AM

 

Unless you can say Max had all the benefit you did and didn't do anything to make it right, you should shut your cock sucker.

 

 

Who is max. I don't know what you are talking about. Is there a specific allegation you want to reference? Are you saying max did something, but he doesn't have access to video or shot coach? Or that he can't look at a bad run with a standing reload and realize the time is wrong?


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#42 not that bryan

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 07:20 AM

I got +7 added to my time at the last match I shot (local). Compared stage video where you can clearly hear RO say 18.62 and match results say 25.36

I wanted to let the MD know but also didn't want to look like a cunt trying to get first place C class in L10 either.


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#43 Ben

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 08:33 AM

Who is max. I don't know what you are talking about. Is there a specific allegation you want to reference? Are you saying max did something, but he doesn't have access to video or shot coach? Or that he can't look at a bad run with a standing reload and realize the time is wrong?

 

 

Hahha. Well played. To be honest he deserves to be raked over the coals. I am just sorry I am not the guy to start the thread.

I don't know if it is cheating, but I know you are a douche fucker if you accept a time you KNOW is wrong. You are a real fuckhead if you push back on the RM when they come asking you to reshoot.


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#44 LeadChucker

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 08:49 AM

Hahha. Well played. To be honest he deserves to be raked over the coals. I am just sorry I am not the guy to start the thread.
I don't know if it is cheating, but I know you are a douche fucker if you accept a time you KNOW is wrong. You are a real fuckhead if you push back on the RM when they come asking you to reshoot.


When were did this happen?

#45 Alfred Salveti

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 09:00 AM

“If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying hard enough” — made famous by former Chicago Cubs first basemen, Mark Grace 
 

I don't remember him saying that but I've read a few articles on his statement and I didn't find anything that suggested he actually advocated cheating however he played in an era when almost every  home run crushing MLB was "cheating."  

 

What actually are the ethical standards of sports.  If you are a line-man you hold on every single play and you leave it up to the ref to call it.  Do you see those guys asking for a touchdown to be called back....no.  When an NBA player fouls a shooter and it's a miss....they don't go to the ref and say yep, I got him.  Running backs don't stop running until they hear a whistle.  Doesn't matter if they know their knee was down or if they stepped out of bounds.  And what about an outfielder or receiver who "knows" the ball skipped before they caught it.

 

It's kind of interesting that someone can point to the examples above and say this one's OK, that's not.  "Ethically" they are all wrong.

 

Sadly the USPSA rule books says if the score is signed by the shooter and RO it's unequivocal.  

 

Maybe it's to take another look at the use of video review after all.

 

If somebody can prove "the shooter"  "knowingly" accepted a score he knew was wrong.  Ie, he was witnessed to have checked his shot coach and "THEN" signed the score sheet.  He is in fact a cheat and should be banned from the sport.  That is 100% unsportsmanlike conduct.

 

If there is evidence he became aware of the obvious error during the match or arbitration period and he failed to notify the RM, he should be DQ'd from that match for unsportsmanlike conduct.

 

But people get away with this stuff because nobody does anything about it.


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#46 snark

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 09:22 AM

In the Long-Long Ago Dark Days of the First Clinton Gun Ban (er, 2002) at the "Factory Gun Nationals", Sevigny famously demanded a reshoot based on his time on a stage being too good and therefore timer failure.

 

There are plenty of "if you ain't cheating, you ain't racing" dudes in this sport.  They're all douches.


Use the rules. Don't DQ someone who doesn't do anything DQable. -- Da Beard.

 


#47 peterthefish

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 10:42 AM

...

#48 RockOutGLOCKOut

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 10:57 AM

Hahha. Well played. To be honest he deserves to be raked over the coals. I am just sorry I am not the guy to start the thread.

I don't know if it is cheating, but I know you are a douche fucker if you accept a time you KNOW is wrong. You are a real fuckhead if you push back on the RM when they come asking you to reshoot.

 

That doesn't surprise me after watching the fit he threw on TV during the World Shoot coverage, trying to argue about the "double" he had on the swinging target.


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#49 teenlaqueefah

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 11:36 AM

Are you saying max did something, but he doesn't have access to video or shot coach?


He probably still hasn't figured out how to use the UI on Shot Coach.
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#50 (Sh)ItJustGotReal

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:01 PM

Someone I know at 2014 production nats shot a stage and was the stage winner. He just thought he had a smoking run. Well turns out, on the ride home while checking results, the next closest finisher was JJ at 90℅. So this guy checks his video and sure enough, the RO did not follow him into the shooting area far enough to pick up his last several shots. His time was off by like 7 seconds.

By this time he was hours away on the road home. My buddy calls Troy who says essentially, nothing he can do. Either let it stand or eat a zero. He thinks about the match implications. I mean this is nationals. No telling how his stage win will affect stage points, match points, and the final results. So he tells Troy to issue him a zero.

That was an integrity move. Although I still think it's bullshit he had to eat a stage zero that he didn't earn.

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That's BS.  Rules specifically say that video cannot be used to arbitrate anything.



#51 Foxj66

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:02 PM

Its the right move. At SS nationals They entered my scores on the standards stage incorrectly giving me an extra 20 match points. I had them correct it. As it turned out it made no real difference but I would have felt pretty awful with it had I won my class my less than 20.


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#52 (Sh)ItJustGotReal

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:05 PM

You can time Max's video and see that it's off. Same with Nick's, although his was waaaay fucking off - and in the wrong direction

 

What stage/match are we talking about here?  And which way is the wrong direction?  Anything other than the correct time is the wrong direction.



#53 Ben

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:07 PM

Stage 5, Prod nats

Nick reshot.

Max refused when Troy approached him about it. Douche ticket punched.
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#54 bgary

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:25 PM

Douche ticket punched.

 

In the days of paper, if an RO marked a no-shoot or procedural on the scoresheet *outside* the little box, we couldn't count it because it would be "altering the scorecard".  So we'd go out to the shooter, ask the shooter and the RO to acknowledge the penalty, write the number in the box and have both shooter and RO initial the change.

 

In something like 15 years of scoring Area and National matches, only once - *once* - did a shooter refuse to initial the change.  Said the RO screwed up and it wasn't his job to make it right.

 

As you say, douche-ticket punched.


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Disclaimer: I post here as an individual member of USPSA, and speak only for myself...


 


#55 Alfred Salveti

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:31 PM

That doesn't surprise me after watching the fit he threw on TV during the World Shoot coverage, trying to argue about the "double" he had on the swinging target.

 

Best predictor of future actions is past behavior. 

 

Stage 5, Prod nats

Nick reshot.

Max refused when Troy approached him about it. Douche ticket punched.

 

I don't know Max.  I don't shoot on his level.  He's not my peer....

 

But if he was I'd call him like I see it.

 

Thanks for stepping up - now where are you peers.  Where's the rest of the "Super Squad" on this.  

 

 

 

As you say, douche-ticket punched.

 

Thanks Area 1 HMFIC who posts here as an "individual" not in their capacity of Area Director.  But now I believe you may be aware of possible unethical conduct that brings our sport into disrepute.  I expect you'll be ensuring an investigation into the conduct and ensuring proper action is taken.

 

To be clear....the allegation is Max Michelle was aware his time was recorded incorrectly and later was informed his time was recorded incorrectly and when asked to re-shoot; refused?


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#56 (Sh)ItJustGotReal

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:35 PM

Stage 5, Prod nats

Nick reshot.

Max refused when Troy approached him about it. Douche ticket punched.

 

 

http://www.reactiong...-gifs/ff3lu.gif



#57 Sweet T

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 01:15 PM

That doesn't surprise me after watching the fit he threw on TV during the World Shoot coverage, trying to argue about the "double" he had on the swinging target.

 

Start at 12:13

 



#58 peterthefish

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 01:45 PM

Looks like a double to me. I agree that the bullet is moving so quickly you will not get a noticeably oblong hole from the movement of a swinger.

#59 teenlaqueefah

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 01:45 PM

Start at 12:13


My proposal for all one hole targets:

GM-M: double
A: flip a coin
B-C: mike
D-U: mike over the berm, DQ

Hop to it, McFuckpants.
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#60 bgary

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 01:47 PM

I expect you'll be ensuring an investigation into the conduct and ensuring proper action is taken.

 

I'm not aware of anything, and I can prove it ;-)

 

No options to change any scores, even if there were rock-solid facts

 

-- the rulebook defines what we can/cannot do about scores

-- the rulebook defines the chain of command, from RO thru CRO and ending with RM

-- the rulebook says that after the 1-hour posting period, results are official.

 

*if* there is evidence of unethical behavior - as in the PVH videos - I expect that they'd be reviewed and possibly acted upon.  But at this point I'm not aware of any.


Disclaimer: I post here as an individual member of USPSA, and speak only for myself...


 





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