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USPSA vs IPSC cage match


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#61 Not Will

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:22 PM

Here's an interesting thing that I found:

 

http://www.nroiphil..../1450352340.pdf

 

This is an email from the Phillipine RD and a follow-on email from Vince Pinto sent to Mike and Phil in December of 2015.  In it, Vince lays out IPSC's objection, which is the root of all of this sanction talk and possible split.  

 

"... USPSA acceptance of foreign clubs (emphasis in original) creates an unhappy and unhealthy situation whereby two organizations (USPSA and the IPSC affiliate), are offering virtually identical practical shooting disciplines in the same foreign country."

 

So, why is it in the interest of USPSA to protect an IPSC affiliate from competition when not doing so advances the goals laid out in the USPSA mission statement?


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#62 LeadChucker

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:23 PM

Is Leighton Ooswhatever the fuck related to the golfer?


No clue, but that surname is about as popular as Williams and Smith in the US. So mathematically unlikely

#63 aceinyerface

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:23 PM

Describe the transparency you are looking for.

It seems to me the prez saw shit going really poorly and gave us an official heads up prior to action being taken. That seems pretty transparent to me. We could demand 33000 emails!

Looks like we get to pay $5000+ per head (and fellate Pinto) so "the team" can go get their participation trophies.

Fucking beats me how a solo sport has fucking teams, anyway.

#64 GuanoLoco

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:23 PM

An average US shooter probably finishes in the top 25% at a World Shoot.  There just aren't that many good shooters in the rest of the world.

 

Just fly all 19 of them over here then.    :ph34r:


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#65 Buck Turgidson

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:24 PM

Frankly I see this as a golden opportunity to expand globally and fucking bury IPSC into irrelevance


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#66 LeadChucker

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:26 PM

Frankly I see this as a golden opportunity to expand globally and fucking bury IPSC into irrelevane


Conquer the world via USPSA

#67 aceinyerface

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:28 PM

60 shooters seems like a freaking high number to send. Top 3 and high chick from each division's nationals should be sufficient.

#68 GooldMember

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:30 PM

What benefit does "both sides work together to find a way to sort this out again" benefit the 26,940 of us who are NOT looking for a free ticket to France? Sarcasm over, what does being a IPSC region do for us the paying members? And let's not forget the large quantities of money it costs us to be a member. Sorry, but I just don't see an upside to membership in IPSC for the rank and file, you know... Those of us that pay the bills.

That sounds a whole lot like a pro-classs awards argument. 



#69 Peally

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:31 PM

Even longer. The "discourse" between Dave Stanford and JP Denis was... much the same as this.

The IPSC leadership has the votes of many small regions (cambodia?), including some where gun ownership is not even permitted (Japan)... and those votes give them power to steer the IPSC assembly in ways that they believe best suits the interests of their org. Those interests do not always align with *our* efforts to steer USPSA in ways that benefit our members.

So it goes.

Bottom line is, nothing has happened yet except a new rule got written. USPSA has not been sanctioned or disaffiliated. We're not banned from the World Shoot. There's plenty of opportunity for both sides to work together to find a way to sort this out. Again.

$.02

 

Naturally this might be able to be sorted out (again), but I think a lot of the conversation stems from whether we should bother or not. 100K isn't a fortune but it's not exactly a small chunk of change considering what we get in return. For 100K a year we could be building up some nice ranges.



#70 slemmo

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:35 PM

I feel the same, WS france 2017 is a big deal for me, and not beeing able to compete against the top US shooters is just sad. 

 

Also my 2018 plans was trying to attend uspsa open nationals and other large matches in the US

 

Just join USPSA as a foreign member like the other norwegians who travel to the US to shoot sectionals and whatever.



#71 Ben

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:40 PM

What benefit does "both sides work together to find a way to sort this out again" benefit the 26,940 of us who are NOT looking for a free ticket to France? Sarcasm over, what does being a IPSC region do for us the paying members? And let's not forget the large quantities of money it costs us to be a member. Sorry, but I just don't see an upside to membership in IPSC for the rank and file, you know... Those of us that pay the bills.

It costs the US .50 cents a year per member to be a member of IPSC. For the price of a pair of gumballs we have an RD slot and can attend GA meetings (like the one Hopkins just attended in Hungary) and vote on IPSC issues. Our guys have an easy time of attending international matches. 

Also this connects us to the international body of shooters. A world championship can't be accomplished without the whole world. You may not personally ever attend a World Shoot but you probably want for one to exist.

So, what does this do for the ordinary members? Not much. What does it cost them? Not much.

In terms of advancing the sport it seems counter productive to cut ourselves off from the global body.. unless they are really fucking with us.


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#72 Ben

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:41 PM

Naturally this might be able to be sorted out (again), but I think a lot of the conversation stems from whether we should bother or not. 100K isn't a fortune but it's not exactly a small chunk of change considering what we get in return. For 100K a year we could be building up some nice ranges.

It isn't 100k

It is about 10k per year. The rest of the money goes to paying for our dudes to go to France. IPSC doesn't require that.



#73 Peally

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:48 PM

Fair enough, I was just going off of the press release. Still sounds like toes all over are getting stepped on, USPSA is seeing a bit of a global membership issue (presumably due to people wanting an IPSC drama alternative).



#74 Strick

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:50 PM

It costs the US .50 cents a year per member to be a member of IPSC. For the price of a pair of gumballs we have an RD slot and can attend GA meetings (like the one Hopkins just attended in Hungary) and vote on IPSC issues. Our guys have an easy time of attending international matches. 

Also this connects us to the international body of shooters. A world championship can't be accomplished without the whole world. You may not personally ever attend a World Shoot but you probably want for one to exist.

So, what does this do for the ordinary members? Not much. What does it cost them? Not much.

In terms of advancing the sport it seems counter productive to cut ourselves off from the global body.. unless they are really fucking with us.

 

And what does USPSA and it's members get in return?  And what does USPSA and it's members get in return for funding a world shoot team?

 

The majority of USPSA members don't even shoot more than local matches so why should they care about the existence of a World Shoot?



#75 Strick

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:53 PM

It isn't 100k

It is about 10k per year. The rest of the money goes to paying for our dudes to go to France. IPSC doesn't require that.

 

Can't subsidize Area winners (for example.....not even the match fees) to go to it's own Nationals but can pay for a this?  


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#76 LeadChucker

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:53 PM

It costs the US .50 cents a year per member to be a member of IPSC. For the price of a pair of gumballs we have an RD slot and can attend GA meetings (like the one Hopkins just attended in Hungary) and vote on IPSC issues. Our guys have an easy time of attending international matches. 
Also this connects us to the international body of shooters. A world championship can't be accomplished without the whole world. You may not personally ever attend a World Shoot but you probably want for one to exist.
So, what does this do for the ordinary members? Not much. What does it cost them? Not much.
In terms of advancing the sport it seems counter productive to cut ourselves off from the global body.. unless they are really fucking with us.


I agree, it does not cost us much, not individually, but collectively it adds up pretty fast. I get that you like to shoot all over, and I am sure IF USPSA is no longer a part of IPSC there will be an avenue for you to be able to do that. I think it's great that there is a World Shoot, I just have ZERO interest in financing the US team to attend. Let the shooters that want to attend the world shoot finance themselves. WE, as in USPSA, get little to nothing out of some dudes/dudettes going to the World Shoot. My guess is IF it was self financed it would eliminate anyone who is not competitive to win. There are too many looking for an experience and a free shirt at the expense of others.
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#77 LeadChucker

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:54 PM

It isn't 100k
It is about 10k per year. The rest of the money goes to paying for our dudes to go to France. IPSC doesn't require that.


It's 10K per year, 100K every third for the "team vacation"

Not money well spent in my opinion
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#78 Trigger Warning

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:56 PM

The math is all wrong. There are five people in this thread who care to dump IPSC so that's 20,000 a head impact. USPSA can't afford that!

I would think once Coke marketing finds out that not only do we demand to shoot humanoid targets with guns that can kill a participant or spectator with one slip of the hand, but also active members squabble over long standing arrangements that have a marginal impact of .5 dollar annually, they would be chomping to unleash major marketing dollars on the sport.

Let's face it, this would be cool if it were about money but it's not cause there's hardly any money in it. It's about the right to control practical shooting in the area of the world that most practically employs it: the Philippines. What with the new president's anti-drug campaign yielding over 30 practical alphas daily by citizens of all stripes, every day you walk out the door counts as a classifier.
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#79 jimbob

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:58 PM

It isn't 100k

It is about 10k per year. The rest of the money goes to paying for our dudes to go to France. IPSC doesn't require that.

 

So what is USPSA supposed to do, exactly, to resolve the situation?

 

I 100% get your argument, all the globalist talk and having the world participate makes it prestigious and all that.   You convinced me, but what exactly is Foley supposed to do?



#80 LeadChucker

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 01:00 PM

USPSA is Trump

IPSC and Hillary are fucking globalists.

I am all about autonomy, fuck IPSC
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