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One club's reaction to rules 2017


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#41 Trigger Warning

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 07:13 AM

I don't doubt some California or NY or DC DA's would do what they could to punish a gun owner, even in a defensive shooting scenario.

 

However, you can offer about anything in defense, subject to the rules of evidence, and I'm sure you could enter your load data as evidence, if you thought it could help, or if it countered some assertion by the DA.  If your lawyer can't get that into evidence, your lawyer is an alcoholic who hates life and is taking it out on you.

 

While of course juries are unpredictable, this thing about the light trigger prosecution and such I've heard about from the time I stepped foot in law school.  Of course, I'm in NC, so the whole things seems ultra stupid unless you are in a communist state, at which point the DA may attack you whether you polished a connector or not.

 

If you intended to shoot the intruder and put a bullet in his body, whether your trigger was 1 ounce or 8 pounds does not seem relevant.  If you shot somebody by accident, it does.

 

I'm wondering, because I haven't looked, is there such a case where somebody went to jail in an otherwise justified shooting simply because they had modded in some way their firearm or made their own ammo.  Seems urban-legendish, the kind of "inside baseball" an instructor would like to tell you to help get that class to the advertised amount of hours, along with lots of stories about how they almost had to deploy their firearms as they identified threats in parking lots, malls and while dog walking.

 

The legal parameters of lethal self defense are set out in this state and they make sense.  If you feel in fear of death or serious bodily harm, know your target and only shoot it if you mean to because you will have to answer for that act, 1 pound trigger or 12 pound double action.


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On injured reserve.


#42 Sprewell

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 07:19 AM

 

I'm wondering, because I haven't looked, is there such a case where somebody went to jail in an otherwise justified shooting simply because they had modded in some way their firearm or made their own ammo.  

 

 

Not to my knowledge and it comes up every time somebody makes the "don't use reloads" argument.  



#43 Miculek is a Noob

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 07:38 AM

I'm wondering, because I haven't looked, is there such a case where somebody went to jail in an otherwise justified shooting simply because they had modded in some way their firearm or made their own ammo. 

 

Yes. You have to buy and read Ayoob's books to learn about the cases. 



#44 Sprewell

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 07:40 AM

Yes. You have to buy and read Ayoob's books to learn about the cases. 

 

I call shenanigans.  Shenanigans on Sweet T also, he ain't going to pistol whip nobody.



#45 redrider

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 07:47 AM

The counter action to using your own reloads being called "extra deadly" and you had prior intent to be a man killer is to immediately call for an ambulance for the guy you shot. If I was such a viscous person, seeking for that one shot kill of anyone who crossed me as is totally obvious from my ammo choice, why then would I also call for medical assistance for the same said guy?

 

What you do immediately post shooting (post shooting meaning the gun is no longer in your hand but holstered or surrendered) is important. You state you can't hear anything so can't answer questions. You state you need medical attention for the person shot.

 

Aaaaaannnndddd now I just talked about real life, in an idpa thread, on doodie. I need to go dry fire my Lim gun to wash this off me...



#46 Doc

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 07:58 AM

I'm not going to argue it either way. I'll just say this: Ayoob has been an expert witness in more than a few cases. I have not. Has anyone here had any first hand experience to counter his claims?


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#47 TrannyOakley

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:02 AM

I'm wondering, because I haven't looked, is there such a case where somebody went to jail in an otherwise justified shooting simply because they had modded in some way their firearm

 

There have been a few pop up in gun media over the years. The latest I recall being this one: https://bearingarms....-15-dust-cover/

 

Dunno if he got convicted (too lazy to look) but the mod was definitely used against him in court.
 



#48 aceinyerface

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:22 AM

You guys must know more than Ayoob http://gundigest.com...concealed-carry

 

"Defensive shootings are often very close-range affairs in which gunshot residue (GSR) from your muzzle is deposited on your attacker’s body or clothing. This can become a critical evidentiary factor if the other side insists he was too far away from you to endanger you at the moment he was shot. The distance testing is done with exemplar ammunition, that is, ammo identical to what was in your gun, but not the same exact cartridges. Don’t count on the crime lab testing the remaining rounds from your weapon as taken into evidence at the shooting scene. If the fight was sufficiently intense, there may not be any rounds left in the gun that saved your life. Even if there are remaining cartridges in evidence, they may not be tested. The prosecutor can argue, “Your honor, firing those cartridges consumes them! It’s destructive testing! The defense is asking the Court’s permission to destroy the evidence! You cannot allow it!” Do you think that’s a BS argument? So did I…until I saw a judge accept it, in a case where handloads were used in the death weapon, but the state crime lab tested with a much more powerful factory load, based on the headstamp on the reloaded casings. That gave a false indication of distance involved, and the defendant – whom I have strong reason to believe was innocent – was convicted of manslaughter."

 

You geniuses need to get your asses into some classes.



#49 Doc

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:28 AM

You aren't going to be able to convince them otherwise, Ace. After all, this is the Timmy in the food court section of Doodie where IDPA is training. You'd think they'd listen to Ayoob in this section, but the IDPA derp runs deep.


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It pins my irony meter when people post things like "your to stupid..."

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#50 Sprewell

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:31 AM

I'm worried now.  Maybe I should ditch the Taran Tactical plus 1 base pad and load up some Winchester white box?



#51 Peally

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:33 AM

You guys are in a debate mood lately.

A: they're a great way to look like a fudd

B: they sell effective shit right over the counter now, it works great and doesn't even smoke like a pirate gun

The only reasons I can see are being super cheap to the point of cheaping out on the bullets you use to make sure you live, or some derpy argument about tuned bullets to your gun, as if no factory load exists out there that can match some used brass crammed with smoky powder and those hollow points you had lying around.

#52 Buck Turgidson

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:34 AM

I'm not going to argue it either way. I'll just say this: Ayoob has been an expert witness in more than a few cases. I have not. Has anyone here had any first hand experience to counter his claims?

 

Is that like disproving a negative?


I need something to do while shooting, and thinking about titties is too distracting  - Stubb


#53 Doc

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:34 AM

oh snap...

 

I was just gonna post that several Doodie members are busily dumping their reloads and jamming Winchester white box without admitting it.

 

lol


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Unload and Show Clear...
tsarbombaexplos2.jpg
"Licorne" French Polynesia 1970

It pins my irony meter when people post things like "your to stupid..."

You brought a rifle to a handgun competition?

#54 Sprewell

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:36 AM

You guys are in a debate mood lately.

A: they're a great way to look like a fudd

B: they sell effective shit right over the counter now, it works great and doesn't even smoke like a pirate gun

The only reasons I can see are being super cheap to the point of cheaping out on the bullets you use to make sure you live, or some derpy argument about tuned bullets to your gun, as if no factory load exists out there that can match some used brass crammed with smoky powder and those hollow points you had lying around.

 

FWIW, my self defense loads use new Starline brass, Gold Dot bullets, and 2/10ths of a grain more n340 than my gamer loads.  Loaded on a single stage press for extra goodness.



#55 Doc

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:36 AM

Is that like disproving a negative?

 

...might be the first instance ever.


Unload and Show Clear...
tsarbombaexplos2.jpg
"Licorne" French Polynesia 1970

It pins my irony meter when people post things like "your to stupid..."

You brought a rifle to a handgun competition?

#56 peterthefish

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:40 AM

You guys must know more than Ayoob http://gundigest.com...concealed-carry

"Defensive shootings are often very close-range affairs in which gunshot residue (GSR) from your muzzle is deposited on your attacker’s body or clothing. This can become a critical evidentiary factor if the other side insists he was too far away from you to endanger you at the moment he was shot. The distance testing is done with exemplar ammunition, that is, ammo identical to what was in your gun, but not the same exact cartridges. Don’t count on the crime lab testing the remaining rounds from your weapon as taken into evidence at the shooting scene. If the fight was sufficiently intense, there may not be any rounds left in the gun that saved your life. Even if there are remaining cartridges in evidence, they may not be tested. The prosecutor can argue, “Your honor, firing those cartridges consumes them! It’s destructive testing! The defense is asking the Court’s permission to destroy the evidence! You cannot allow it!” Do you think that’s a BS argument? So did I…until I saw a judge accept it, in a case where handloads were used in the death weapon, but the state crime lab tested with a much more powerful factory load, based on the headstamp on the reloaded casings. That gave a false indication of distance involved, and the defendant – whom I have strong reason to believe was innocent – was convicted of manslaughter."

You geniuses need to get your asses into some classes.


So basically the defendant had a shitty attorney? I mean, testing factory ammo based on headstamp alone when it doesn't match the ammo in gun or slugs recovered would hardly be conclusive. It might get entered into evidence, but defense should be able to enter evidence to the contrary.

Does Ayoob happen to offer any citation of the myriad cases he discusses?

#57 Fishyjoe

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:42 AM

I had to google center axis relock. Shits ghey. I want t-1 dq'd for dropping his gun.

https://youtu.be/-z0Pm7tccvc

Check out Walter with the OG accu-shadow. That guy was well ahead of his time.

#58 aceinyerface

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:44 AM

So basically the defendant had a shitty attorney? I mean, testing factory ammo based on headstamp alone when it doesn't match the ammo in gun or slugs recovered would hardly be conclusive. It might get entered into evidence, but defense should be able to enter evidence to the contrary.

Does Ayoob happen to offer any citation of the myriad cases he discusses?

 

In his class, yes he does, and if you ask a question then he will melt your brain with cases.

 

Lemme use that googler fuh ya...

 

https://www.thehighr...-6#post-2129976

 

"

Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court

As promised, here are the sources for records for any who feel a need to confirm the cases I have referenced previously where handloaded ammunition caused problems for people in the aftermath of shootings.

As I have noted in this thread earlier, and as the attorneys who have responded to this matter have confirmed, local trials and results are not usually available on-line. However, in each case, I have included the location where the physical records of the trials are archived.

NH v. Kennedy

James Kennedy, a sergeant on the Hampton, NH police force, pursued a drunk driver whose reckless operation of the vehicle had forced other motorists off the road. The suspect ended up in a ditch, stalled and trying to get underway again. Advised by radio that responding backup officers were still a distance away, and fearing that the man would get back on the road and kill himself and others, Kennedy approached the vehicle. At the driver’s door, the suspect grabbed Kennedy’s Colt .45 auto and pulled it towards himself. It discharged in his face, causing massive injury.

The reload in the gun was a 200 grain Speer JHP, loaded to duplicate the 1000 fps from a 5” barrel then advertised by Speer for the same bullet in loaded cartridge configuration.

This was the first case where I saw the argument, “Why wasn’t regular ammunition deadly enough for you,” used by opposing counsel. They charged Kennedy with aggravated assault. They made a large issue out of his use of handloads, suggesting that they were indicative of a reckless man obsessed with causing maximum damage.

Defense counsel hired the expert I suggested, Jim Cirillo, who did a splendid job of demolishing that argument and other bogus arguments against Kennedy at trial, and Kennedy was acquitted.

This case dates back to the late 1970s. The local courts tell me that the case documentation will be on file at Rockingham County Superior Court, PO Box 1258, Kingston, NH 03843. File search time is billed at $25 per hour for cases such as this that date back prior to 1988.

NJ V. Bias

This is the classic case of gunshot residue (GSR) evidence being complicated by the use of handloaded ammunition, resulting in a case being misinterpreted in a tragic and unjust way. On the night of 2/26/89, Danny Bias entered the master bedroom of his home to find his wife Lise holding the family home defense revolver, a 6” S&W 686, to her head. He told police that knowing that she had a history of suicidal ideation, he attempted to grab the gun, which discharged, killing her. The gun was loaded with four handloaded lead SWC cartridges headstamped Federal .38 Special +P.

Autopsy showed no GSR. The medical examiner determined that Lise Bias had a reach of 30”, and the NJSP Crime Lab in Trenton determined that the gun in question would deposit GSR to a distance of 50” or more with either factory Federal 158 grain SWC +P .38 Special, or handloads taken from his home under warrant for testing after Danny told them about the reloads. However, the reloads that were taken and tested had Remington-Peters headstamps on the casings and were obviously not from the same batch.

Danny had loaded 50 rounds into the Federal cases of 2.3, 2.6, and 2.9 grains of Bullseye, with Winchester primers, under an unusually light 115 grain SWC that he had cast himself, seeking a very light load that his recoil sensitive wife could handle. The gun had been loaded at random from that box of 50 and there was no way of knowing which of the three recipes was in the chamber from which the fatal bullet was launched.

We duplicated that load, and determined that with all of them and particularly the 2.3 grain load, GSR distribution was so light that it could not be reliably gathered or recovered, from distances as short as 24”. Unfortunately, the remaining rounds in the gun could not be disassembled for testing as they were the property of the court, and there is no forensic artifact that can determine the exact powder charge that was fired from a given spent cartridge.

According to an attorney who represented him later, police originally believed the death to be a suicide. However, the forensic evidence testing indicated that was not possible, and it was listed as suspicious death. Based largely on the GSR evidence, as they perceived it, the Warren County prosecutor’s office presented the case to the grand jury, which indicted Danny Bias for Murder in the First Degree in the death of his wife.

Attorney John Lanza represented Danny very effectively at his first trial, which ended in a hung jury. Legal fees exceeded $100,000, bankrupting Danny; Attorney Lanza, who believed then and now in his client’s innocence, swallowed some $90,000 worth of legal work for which he was never paid.

For his second trial, Bias was assigned attorney Elisabeth Smith by the Public Defender’s office. Challenging the quality of evidence collection, she was able to weaken the prosecution’s allegation that the GSR factor equaled murder, but because the GSR issue was so muddled by the handloaded ammo factor, she could not present concrete evidence that the circumstances were consistent with suicide, and the second trial ended with a hung jury in 1992. At this point, the prosecution having twice failed to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, the judge threw out the murder charge.

It was after this that I personally lost track of the case. However, I’ve learned this past week that the case of NJ v. Daniel Bias was tried a third time in the mid-1990s, resulting in his being acquitted of Aggravated Manslaughter but convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. The appellate division of the Public Defender’s office handled his post-conviction relief and won him a fourth trial. The fourth trial, more than a decade after the shooting, ended with Danny Bias again convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. By now, the state had changed its theory and was suggesting that Danny had pointed the gun at her head to frighten her, thinking one of the two empty chambers would come up under the firing pin, but instead discharging the gun. Danny Bias was sentenced to six years in the penitentiary, and served three before being paroled. He remains a convicted felon who cannot own a firearm.

It is interesting to hear the advice of the attorneys who actually tried this case. John Lanza wrote, “When a hand load is used in an incident which becomes the subject of a civil or criminal trial, the duplication of that hand load poses a significant problem for both the plaintiff or the prosecutor and the defendant. Once used, there is no way, with certainty, to determine the amount of powder or propellant used for that load. This becomes significant when forensic testing is used in an effort to duplicate the shot and the resulting evidence on the victim or target.”

He adds, “With the commercial load, one would be in a better position to argue the uniformity between the loads used for testing and the subject load. With a hand load, you have no such uniformity. Also, the prosecution may utilize either standard loads or a different hand load in its testing. The result would be distorted and could be prejudicial to the defendant. Whether or not the judge would allow such a scientific test to be used at trial, is another issue, which, if allowed, would be devastating for the defense. From a strictly forensic standpoint, I would not recommend the use of hand loads because of the inherent lack of uniformity and the risk of unreliable test results. Once the jury hears the proof of an otherwise unreliable test, it can be very difficult to ‘unring the bell.’”

Ms. Smith had this to say, after defending Danny Bias through his last three trials. I asked her, “Is it safe to say that factory ammunition, with consistently replicable gunshot residue characteristics, (would) have proven that the gun was within reach of Lise’s head in her own hand, and kept the case from escalating as it did?”

She replied, “You’re certainly right about that. Gunshot residue was absolutely the focus of the first trial. The prosecution kept going back to the statement, “It couldn’t have happened the way he said it did’.” 

The records on the Bias trials should be available through:
The Superior Court of New Jersey
Warren County
313 Second Street
PO Box 900
Belvedere, NJ 07823

Those who wish to follow the appellate track of this case will find it in the Atlantic Reporter.

142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)

Supreme Court of New Jersey
State
v.
Daniel N. Bias 
NOS. C-188 SEPT.TERM 1995, 40,813
Oct 03, 1995
Disposition: Cross-pet. Denied.
N.J. 1995.
State v. Bias
142 N>J> 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)


TN v. Barnes

The decedent attacked Robert Barnes and his young daughter with a large knife and was shot to death by the defendant with SJHP .38 Special reloads from a Smith & Wesson Model 36. The distance between the two at the time of the shooting became a key element in the trial, and a misunderstanding of that distance was a primary reason he was charged with Murder. The evidence was messed up in a number of ways in this case, and I do not believe the reloaded ammo (which the prosecution did not recognize to be such until during the trial) was the key problem, but it definitely was part of a problem in reconstructing the case. We were able to do that without GSR evidence, and Mr. Barnes won an acquittal. In this case, I believe the use of factory ammo, combined with proper handling and preserving of the evidence by the initial investigators, would have made the defense much easier and might well have prevented the case from ever being lodged against him. 

The records of TN v. Barnes are archived under case number 87297015 at:

Criminal Justice Center
201 Poplar
Suite 401
Memphis, TN 38103

Iowa v. Cpl. Randy Willems

A man attempted to disarm and murder Corporal Randy Willems of the Davenport, IA Police Department, screaming “Give me your (expletive deleted) gun, I’ll blow your (expletive deleted) brains out.” Willems shot him during the third disarming attempt, dropping him instantly with one hit to the abdomen from a department issue factory round, Fiocchi 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+. The subject survived and stated that the officer had shot him for nothing from a substantial distance away. GSR testing showed conclusively that the subject’s torso was approximately 18” from the muzzle of the issue Beretta 92 when it discharged. Randy was acquitted of criminal charges in the shooting at trial in 1990. Two years later, Randy and his department won the civil suit filed against them by the man who was shot.

I use this case when discussing handloads because it is a classic example of how the replicability of factory ammunition, in the forensic evidence sense, can annihilate false allegations by the “bad guy” against the “good guy” who shot him. The records of State of Iowa v. Corporal Randy Willems are archived in the Iowa District Court in Scott County, Davenport, Iowa. Those from the civil suit, Karwoski v. Willems and the City of Davenport, should be at the Iowa Civil Court of Scott County, also located in Davenport, Iowa.

A final word: I did not research the above and place it here to placate lightweight net ninjas. I did it because three recent Internet threads led me to believe that a number of decent people had honest questions about the real-world concerns about using handloads for self-defense, and were possibly putting themselves in jeopardy by doing so. For well over a decade, certain people have been creating an urban myth that says, “No one has ever gotten in trouble in court because they used handloads.”

This is now absolutely, and I hope finally, refuted.

Respectfully submitted,
Massad Ayoob"

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#59 Peally

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:45 AM

Sounds like the shop owner was using 230g ball ammo. Not surprising considering a far more impressive gold dot might not cycle through that cowboy relic of his :ph34r:



#60 Sprewell

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:45 AM

Same here with the center axis thing.  I even tried it out sitting here at my desk.  I guess you could practice enough to make anything work but it seems pretty fucked up to me. 






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