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One club's reaction to rules 2017


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#61 redrider

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:48 AM

But I've beaten Ayoob in idpa matches, so I must be better. hahahaha. Well I have. But I definitely lack his experience. The local police recommended me to carry commercial defensive ammo of a few brands, so that is what is in my carry guns.

 

OK, so now back to the thread I started about idpa-purist clubs being really bent out of shape about the new rules. i still shoot idpa locally once in a while and do a state match or two and nationals just cause.

 

Of the people who shoot ipda and find it tolerable, do you think this new rule book will cause more clubs to quit their affiliation or is this all bluster?



#62 Peally

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:53 AM

They didn't quit before with a retarded rulebook, they're not gonna quit now. Every 6 months when they re-write the thing it's the same story.



#63 Fishyjoe

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:54 AM

I think it's bluster. Turns out one club was running shitty matches and we're forced back (by IDPA) to a level 2 from a level 4 so they decided not to host a match and blamed it on the new rule book. Badlands I think.

#64 Doc

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 09:07 AM

nice job, Ace.


Unload and Show Clear...
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It pins my irony meter when people post things like "your to stupid..."

You brought a rifle to a handgun competition?

#65 peterthefish

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 09:22 AM

In his class, yes he does, and if you ask a question then he will melt your brain with cases.

Lemme use that googler fuh ya...

https://www.thehighr...-6#post-2129976

"

Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court

As promised, here are the sources for records for any who feel a need to confirm the cases I have referenced previously where handloaded ammunition caused problems for people in the aftermath of shootings.

As I have noted in this thread earlier, and as the attorneys who have responded to this matter have confirmed, local trials and results are not usually available on-line. However, in each case, I have included the location where the physical records of the trials are archived.

NH v. Kennedy

James Kennedy, a sergeant on the Hampton, NH police force, pursued a drunk driver whose reckless operation of the vehicle had forced other motorists off the road. The suspect ended up in a ditch, stalled and trying to get underway again. Advised by radio that responding backup officers were still a distance away, and fearing that the man would get back on the road and kill himself and others, Kennedy approached the vehicle. At the driver’s door, the suspect grabbed Kennedy’s Colt .45 auto and pulled it towards himself. It discharged in his face, causing massive injury.

The reload in the gun was a 200 grain Speer JHP, loaded to duplicate the 1000 fps from a 5” barrel then advertised by Speer for the same bullet in loaded cartridge configuration.

This was the first case where I saw the argument, “Why wasn’t regular ammunition deadly enough for you,” used by opposing counsel. They charged Kennedy with aggravated assault. They made a large issue out of his use of handloads, suggesting that they were indicative of a reckless man obsessed with causing maximum damage.

Defense counsel hired the expert I suggested, Jim Cirillo, who did a splendid job of demolishing that argument and other bogus arguments against Kennedy at trial, and Kennedy was acquitted.

This case dates back to the late 1970s. The local courts tell me that the case documentation will be on file at Rockingham County Superior Court, PO Box 1258, Kingston, NH 03843. File search time is billed at $25 per hour for cases such as this that date back prior to 1988.

NJ V. Bias

This is the classic case of gunshot residue (GSR) evidence being complicated by the use of handloaded ammunition, resulting in a case being misinterpreted in a tragic and unjust way. On the night of 2/26/89, Danny Bias entered the master bedroom of his home to find his wife Lise holding the family home defense revolver, a 6” S&W 686, to her head. He told police that knowing that she had a history of suicidal ideation, he attempted to grab the gun, which discharged, killing her. The gun was loaded with four handloaded lead SWC cartridges headstamped Federal .38 Special +P.

Autopsy showed no GSR. The medical examiner determined that Lise Bias had a reach of 30”, and the NJSP Crime Lab in Trenton determined that the gun in question would deposit GSR to a distance of 50” or more with either factory Federal 158 grain SWC +P .38 Special, or handloads taken from his home under warrant for testing after Danny told them about the reloads. However, the reloads that were taken and tested had Remington-Peters headstamps on the casings and were obviously not from the same batch.

Danny had loaded 50 rounds into the Federal cases of 2.3, 2.6, and 2.9 grains of Bullseye, with Winchester primers, under an unusually light 115 grain SWC that he had cast himself, seeking a very light load that his recoil sensitive wife could handle. The gun had been loaded at random from that box of 50 and there was no way of knowing which of the three recipes was in the chamber from which the fatal bullet was launched.

We duplicated that load, and determined that with all of them and particularly the 2.3 grain load, GSR distribution was so light that it could not be reliably gathered or recovered, from distances as short as 24”. Unfortunately, the remaining rounds in the gun could not be disassembled for testing as they were the property of the court, and there is no forensic artifact that can determine the exact powder charge that was fired from a given spent cartridge.

According to an attorney who represented him later, police originally believed the death to be a suicide. However, the forensic evidence testing indicated that was not possible, and it was listed as suspicious death. Based largely on the GSR evidence, as they perceived it, the Warren County prosecutor’s office presented the case to the grand jury, which indicted Danny Bias for Murder in the First Degree in the death of his wife.

Attorney John Lanza represented Danny very effectively at his first trial, which ended in a hung jury. Legal fees exceeded $100,000, bankrupting Danny; Attorney Lanza, who believed then and now in his client’s innocence, swallowed some $90,000 worth of legal work for which he was never paid.

For his second trial, Bias was assigned attorney Elisabeth Smith by the Public Defender’s office. Challenging the quality of evidence collection, she was able to weaken the prosecution’s allegation that the GSR factor equaled murder, but because the GSR issue was so muddled by the handloaded ammo factor, she could not present concrete evidence that the circumstances were consistent with suicide, and the second trial ended with a hung jury in 1992. At this point, the prosecution having twice failed to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, the judge threw out the murder charge.

It was after this that I personally lost track of the case. However, I’ve learned this past week that the case of NJ v. Daniel Bias was tried a third time in the mid-1990s, resulting in his being acquitted of Aggravated Manslaughter but convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. The appellate division of the Public Defender’s office handled his post-conviction relief and won him a fourth trial. The fourth trial, more than a decade after the shooting, ended with Danny Bias again convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. By now, the state had changed its theory and was suggesting that Danny had pointed the gun at her head to frighten her, thinking one of the two empty chambers would come up under the firing pin, but instead discharging the gun. Danny Bias was sentenced to six years in the penitentiary, and served three before being paroled. He remains a convicted felon who cannot own a firearm.

It is interesting to hear the advice of the attorneys who actually tried this case. John Lanza wrote, “When a hand load is used in an incident which becomes the subject of a civil or criminal trial, the duplication of that hand load poses a significant problem for both the plaintiff or the prosecutor and the defendant. Once used, there is no way, with certainty, to determine the amount of powder or propellant used for that load. This becomes significant when forensic testing is used in an effort to duplicate the shot and the resulting evidence on the victim or target.”

He adds, “With the commercial load, one would be in a better position to argue the uniformity between the loads used for testing and the subject load. With a hand load, you have no such uniformity. Also, the prosecution may utilize either standard loads or a different hand load in its testing. The result would be distorted and could be prejudicial to the defendant. Whether or not the judge would allow such a scientific test to be used at trial, is another issue, which, if allowed, would be devastating for the defense. From a strictly forensic standpoint, I would not recommend the use of hand loads because of the inherent lack of uniformity and the risk of unreliable test results. Once the jury hears the proof of an otherwise unreliable test, it can be very difficult to ‘unring the bell.’”

Ms. Smith had this to say, after defending Danny Bias through his last three trials. I asked her, “Is it safe to say that factory ammunition, with consistently replicable gunshot residue characteristics, (would) have proven that the gun was within reach of Lise’s head in her own hand, and kept the case from escalating as it did?”

She replied, “You’re certainly right about that. Gunshot residue was absolutely the focus of the first trial. The prosecution kept going back to the statement, “It couldn’t have happened the way he said it did’.”

The records on the Bias trials should be available through:
The Superior Court of New Jersey
Warren County
313 Second Street
PO Box 900
Belvedere, NJ 07823

Those who wish to follow the appellate track of this case will find it in the Atlantic Reporter.

142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)

Supreme Court of New Jersey
State
v.
Daniel N. Bias
NOS. C-188 SEPT.TERM 1995, 40,813
Oct 03, 1995
Disposition: Cross-pet. Denied.
N.J. 1995.
State v. Bias
142 N>J> 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)


TN v. Barnes

The decedent attacked Robert Barnes and his young daughter with a large knife and was shot to death by the defendant with SJHP .38 Special reloads from a Smith & Wesson Model 36. The distance between the two at the time of the shooting became a key element in the trial, and a misunderstanding of that distance was a primary reason he was charged with Murder. The evidence was messed up in a number of ways in this case, and I do not believe the reloaded ammo (which the prosecution did not recognize to be such until during the trial) was the key problem, but it definitely was part of a problem in reconstructing the case. We were able to do that without GSR evidence, and Mr. Barnes won an acquittal. In this case, I believe the use of factory ammo, combined with proper handling and preserving of the evidence by the initial investigators, would have made the defense much easier and might well have prevented the case from ever being lodged against him.

The records of TN v. Barnes are archived under case number 87297015 at:

Criminal Justice Center
201 Poplar
Suite 401
Memphis, TN 38103

Iowa v. Cpl. Randy Willems

A man attempted to disarm and murder Corporal Randy Willems of the Davenport, IA Police Department, screaming “Give me your (expletive deleted) gun, I’ll blow your (expletive deleted) brains out.” Willems shot him during the third disarming attempt, dropping him instantly with one hit to the abdomen from a department issue factory round, Fiocchi 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+. The subject survived and stated that the officer had shot him for nothing from a substantial distance away. GSR testing showed conclusively that the subject’s torso was approximately 18” from the muzzle of the issue Beretta 92 when it discharged. Randy was acquitted of criminal charges in the shooting at trial in 1990. Two years later, Randy and his department won the civil suit filed against them by the man who was shot.

I use this case when discussing handloads because it is a classic example of how the replicability of factory ammunition, in the forensic evidence sense, can annihilate false allegations by the “bad guy” against the “good guy” who shot him. The records of State of Iowa v. Corporal Randy Willems are archived in the Iowa District Court in Scott County, Davenport, Iowa. Those from the civil suit, Karwoski v. Willems and the City of Davenport, should be at the Iowa Civil Court of Scott County, also located in Davenport, Iowa.

A final word: I did not research the above and place it here to placate lightweight net ninjas. I did it because three recent Internet threads led me to believe that a number of decent people had honest questions about the real-world concerns about using handloads for self-defense, and were possibly putting themselves in jeopardy by doing so. For well over a decade, certain people have been creating an urban myth that says, “No one has ever gotten in trouble in court because they used handloads.”

This is now absolutely, and I hope finally, refuted.

Respectfully submitted,
Massad Ayoob"


So basically 2 cases where evidence about reloads was immaterial, one where reloads weren't even used, and one fishy as hell case where it sounds like the guy killed his wife but maybe it was his super NON-KILLY reloads that made a suicide appear to be a murder.

Well shit, I'm convinced.

#66 GuanoLoco

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 09:28 AM

Buy a few boxes. Better yet, buy a case and test + split with friends if you must. Done.

federal-premium-9mm-147-grain-hp.jpg

https://www.ammuniti...7-grain-hp.html
$25.95

Federal Premium Tactical HST 9mm 147 Grain Hollow Point P9HST2 Ammo - 50 Rounds per Box
Looking for other calibers of Federal HST Ammo?

The next generation in high performance LE duty ammunition, HST offers consistent expansion and optimum penetration for terminal performance. A specially designed hollow-point tip won't plug while passing through a variety of barriers and this bullet holds its jacket in the toughest conditions. HST is enginerred to provide 100% weight retention through most barriers with impressive expansion.

SPECIFICATIONS:
Manufacturer: Federal
Item #: P9HST2
Category: AMMO CENTERFIRE
Caliber: 9mm
Bullet Type: HST Hollow Point
Bullet Weight: 147 Gr
Muzzle Energy: 326 ft lbs
Muzzle Velocity: 1000 fps
Rounds per Box: 50 Round Box/20 Boxes per Case
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#67 Flexmoney

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 09:30 AM

That ammo says "TACTICAL"!  


Unless otherwise noted, expect that all my posting here is in true Doodie fashion.  If my post somehow upsets your sensibilities, well...there ya go.  


#68 GuanoLoco

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 09:32 AM

It is also 147 gr therefore much softer shooting so you will have the edge in split times.
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#69 Trigger Warning

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 10:08 AM

So a hand load could skew distance testing.  A reasonable point.  If you inscribe that you like to kill people on your gun, it may be used against you.  A reasonable point.  But still no polished connector or bic spring case.  That's what I thought.

 

Of course such a case could exist.  Can't prove it doesn't.  And commies would try.

 

I can't claim any credentials about trying cases involving persecuting people for spring changing or polishing since we don't engage in such shenanigans in this state.

 

Really the only person who has the credentials to say whether district or us attorneys would attempt to make cases from such nonsense are those district or US attorneys in communist areas who would actually try to do it.

 

The cited cases aren't really on point for the sort of mods I see on guns.  


On injured reserve.


#70 Trigger Warning

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 10:13 AM

It is also 147 gr therefore much softer shooting so you will have the edge in split times.

 

That will be used by the district attorney and later civil case attorney to prove you intended to shoot the now-victim more than once.  Without taking the time after the first shot to scan and assess whether the threat remained, you are now guilty of first degree murder, and the death penalty hangs on assessment of aggravating factors, such as a flat trigger or shooting PCC.

 

Your only defense is that you were shooting minor 9mm and your experience with being popper fucked led you to reasonably believe that two shots would be the minimum necessary to even slow down a threat.  

 

If you can get Ayoob to testify for you, and even he probably thinks 9mm minor handloads are gay, and IF he has testified at least once more than the state's expert, you will be released to great fanfare and retire off the resulting lawsuit you bring against the state, against blue bullets for selling 9mm bullets, titegroup for being smokey, and Tanfoglio for creating the perception that 9mm is cool.


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#71 GuanoLoco

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 10:50 AM

That will be used by the district attorney and later civil case attorney to prove you intended to shoot the now-victim more than once. Without taking the time after the first shot to scan and assess whether the threat remained, you are now guilty of first degree murder, and the death penalty hangs on assessment of aggravating factors, such as a flat trigger or shooting PCC.

Your only defense is that you were shooting minor 9mm and your experience with being popper fucked led you to reasonably believe that two shots would be the minimum necessary to even slow down a threat.

If you can get Ayoob to testify for you, and even he probably thinks 9mm minor handloads are gay, and IF he has testified at least once more than the state's expert, you will be released to great fanfare and retire off the resulting lawsuit you bring against the state, against blue bullets for selling 9mm bullets, titegroup for being smokey, and Tanfoglio for creating the perception that 9mm is cool.


I looked up the official stats, and a one shot stop with 9mm only occurs only 34% of the time.

So if I defend myself with only a single shot, I can reasonably expect that 34% of the time my attacker will stop and 66% the attacker will not..

With a second shot, I can improve my odds by another 34%, so 43.56% of the attackers will not be stopped. Better, but I'd like to live.

With a third shot, 28.7% will still be trying to cause me death or grievous bodily harm.

I'm really a Six Sigma kind of guy, and I use the model of continuous improvement to reach my goal of 99.9999x% success.

I set up a spreadsheet and calculated the results tracking the diminishing return on results. I don't hit Six Sigma level results until the 30th shot.

My conclusion is that I need to buy a mark 7 automated 9mm roll sizer and an STI big stick, Gram guts and mag tooning services from pipe tooners local #355. With this I should be able to load one in the chamber + 31 in the magazine - providing a modest margin of error in case I miss a shot or two.

The Open guys had it right all along. Now I need a AIWB rig that doesn't make me look like a raging version of John Holmes.

Shot # # attackers still standing % attackers stopped
0 100% 0.0000%
1 66.00% 34.0000%
2 43.56% 56.4400%
3 28.7496% 71.2504%
4 18.9747% 81.0253%
5 12.5233% 87.4767%
6 8.2654% 91.7346%
7 5.4552% 94.5448%
8 3.6004% 96.3996%
9 2.3763% 97.6237%
10 1.5683% 98.4317%
11 1.0351% 98.9649%
12 0.6832% 99.3168%
13 0.4509% 99.5491%
14 0.2976% 99.7024%
15 0.1964% 99.8036%
16 0.1296% 99.8704%
17 0.0856% 99.9144%
18 0.0565% 99.9435%
19 0.0373% 99.9627%
20 0.0246% 99.9754%
21 0.0162% 99.9838%
22 0.0107% 99.9893%
23 0.0071% 99.9929%
24 0.0047% 99.9953%
25 0.0031% 99.9969%
26 0.0020% 99.9980%
27 0.0013% 99.9987%
28 0.0009% 99.9991%
29 0.0006% 99.9994%
30 0.0004% 99.9996% - Six Sigma Results!!!
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#72 aceinyerface

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 11:04 AM

Back off the dosage of the adderall, Guano!



#73 GuanoLoco

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 11:22 AM

Back off the dosage of the adderall, Guano!

 

But what if there are multiple attackers?

 

Time to invest in a hardware upgrade.

 

7988a041d00fae9a6fcec970e8e6645b.jpg


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#74 aceinyerface

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 11:29 AM

I know a guy that can get some Kydex for that....



#75 Trigger Warning

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 11:45 AM

I like the logic, but in the equation did you account for perfect doubles?  For instance if Max Michel shoots a guy twice with a 9mm does it really cause that much new damage, or are you just piling up bullets in the same hole?  

 

Combat accuracy means no perfect doubles and multiple wound channels.  IDPA should assess a +1 second penalty if the two hits are closer than four inches from grease ring to grease ring.  +2 second penalty if the measurement must be converted to metric.


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On injured reserve.


#76 aceinyerface

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 12:30 PM

I like the logic, but in the equation did you account for perfect doubles?  For instance if Max Michel shoots a guy twice with a 9mm does it really cause that much new damage, or are you just piling up bullets in the same hole?  
 
Combat accuracy means no perfect doubles and multiple wound channels.  IDPA should assess a +1 second penalty if the two hits are closer than four inches from grease ring to grease ring.  +2 second penalty if the measurement must be converted to metric.


More rules... give him a FTDR!

#77 yomamma

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 03:44 PM

This thread went from dumb to more dumber with all that self-defense shooting homoerotic talk.    


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#78 aceinyerface

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 05:53 PM

This thread went from dumb to more dumber with all that self-defense shooting homoerotic talk.


Drew you in like a moth to the flame...
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#79 u sofa king we todd ed

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 06:46 PM

The counter action to using your own reloads being called "extra deadly" and you had prior intent to be a man killer is to immediately call for an ambulance for the guy you shot. If I was such a viscous person, seeking for that one shot kill of anyone who crossed me as is totally obvious from my ammo choice, why then would I also call for medical assistance for the same said guy?
 
What you do immediately post shooting (post shooting meaning the gun is no longer in your hand but holstered or surrendered) is important. You state you can't hear anything so can't answer questions. You state you need medical attention for the person shot.
 
Aaaaaannnndddd now I just talked about real life, in an idpa thread, on doodie. I need to go dry fire my Lim gun to wash this off me...

It won't wash off...it has to wear off during IDPA matches, so, you're fucked.
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#80 Miculek is a Noob

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 09:51 PM

This thread went from dumb to more dumber with all that self-defense shooting homoerotic talk.


Very Doodie.




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