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coach/lineage/school effect?


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#1 redrider

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 12:57 PM

Ask Ben who taught him how to shoot and he'll say himself. Did he go take classes from someone? Ask Dave who taught him, Mink, Vogel, ect.

 

The point? There is a large market in shooting instruction and training. We have a good number of matches during the year in which to see people who are known and the unknowns perform. So why is it that what you see in other sports where someone rises to the top in a visible way because of who coached them, what school they went to, who their mentor was, where they worked out etc do we not see something in pistol shooting sports?

 

Can anyone say they became a National champion because of their time spent with Enos, Leatham, Barnhart, Jarrett, Wilson, Hackathorn and such? Will anyone who's spent a lot of time in classes with Ben, Vogel, Strader and so on in the past 5 years be a champion and then able to be recognized as coming from them?

 

The only thing I can think of is the AMU. You don't see rising stars and think of them as a guy from school X or a student of shooter Y the way you would in a lot of other sports. So why is it we have all these shooting schools and teachers with a good background in competition and yet none of them yield another champion? And why are so many of the people who are champions today, when they had predecessors before them, almost all claim to be self taught?

 

Are the people who think they'll be champions from taking classes delusional when that's not how the person who got be champion (and now teaching them) in the first place arrived there?


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#2 Peally

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 01:13 PM

Perhaps coaches get over-credited in some places, I'm guessing anyone that became a champ anywhere did so because they learned to coach themselves. Eventually they become mental coaches more than fundamentals ones.

 

And yes, there are a lot of delusional people with disposable income around. Others do it to improve or get breakthroughs in their self-coaching.



#3 shmella

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 01:46 PM

I believe Max Michel mentioned in an episode of Hot Shots when he was battling for First place against Shane Coley that he remembers Shane Coley was in a class he was teaching not too long ago and there he was competing against him for first place. Im not saying the reason Coley was contending was because he took a class with Max but if the resources for coaching were the same back when the "champs" were coming up as they are now, more of them probably would have taken advantage of it. The game has changed in shooting sports in the last 5+ Years with more information being out there and means of getting in touch with a "pro" for training.

 

I do think a lot of people are delusional in thinking they can be champion by taking classes. Not because taking classes doesn't help but the talent is getting better in the sport as the years go on, and most people just dont have "it"  Not anyone and everyone has the ability to be Champ regardless of who trained you IMO.  Not that I would know from experience that competitors are generally better now vs 10 years ago. But Ive heard Ben say  it in a Podcast something like that it was easier to win matches at any level say about 10 years ago than it is now.


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#4 Peally

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 01:51 PM

Judging by what I've seen "it" is simply a desire to actually be good versus wanting to piss away $200 on fantasy camp.



#5 redrider

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 04:21 PM

Yep I think shooting is just different.



#6 Will

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 04:31 PM

Shooting isn't a big money mainstream sport like football, tennis, basketball, soccer, so the support system isn't nearly as robust.

So a good coach could help you improve 20% or, a good competitive environment could be another 20%; but the biggest factor for any sport is personal desire which could be 60% to 80%.

#7 WJM

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 05:01 PM

I know that in the Production Nationals front Sight article Alex Gutt said that he learned a lot from Ben and took a class from him.


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#8 Miculek is a Noob

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 05:08 PM

Deep down in their secret inner sanctum, 99% of Ben's students know they will never make it to the super squad at a Nationals, let along stand a chance to win. 

 

It's about fun, motivation, maybe progressing up through the classes a bit, pissing away some mad money, war stories, and bragging rights.


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#9 Doc

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 05:17 PM

Deep down in their secret inner sanctum, 99% of Ben's students know they will never make it to the super squad at a Nationals, let along stand a chance to win.

It's about fun, motivation, maybe progressing up through the classes a bit, pissing away some mad money, war stories, and bragging rights.


Quoted for truth.

We just started the process to try to get Ben to our club. No one I've talked to has ANY designs on the Nationals.

However, BJ Norris was just a local kid in VA-MD with some raw talent until Todd got ahold of him.
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#10 spk

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 06:12 PM

Deep down in their secret inner sanctum, 99% of Ben's students know they will never make it to the super squad at a Nationals, let along stand a chance to win. 

 

It's about fun, motivation, maybe progressing up through the classes a bit, pissing away some mad money, war stories, and bragging rights.

 

Yep.

 

I took one of Ben's classes, has it improved me as a shooter?, yep, in that class was another guy, 'Ozzy' who has since won the, (NZ IPSC) Nationals and several other major matches.

Did Ozzy credit Ben?, not that I can recall, was he obliged to?, nope, does Ben give a rats arse that he not receive credit for others accomplishments?, I would be very surprised, Ben is not even close to the type of egotist that requires constant sphincter tickling, from what I know of him.

 

Was Ben responsible for Ozzy's progress?, no doubt to some degree.

Was Ozzy responsible for his own achievements?, fuck yes, he has put in the time, money, effort and commitment, subsidised to a degree by what he gained from the class with Ben.

 

We both attended the same class, I had been an 'only fuckin just' M for a while, Ozzy had just made M, have I won the Nationals since, fuck no, not even close.

 

Point is, and Noob nailed it, we all do this for slightly different reasons that reflect our ability and motivation, plus it fills in a Saturday afternoon that would otherwise be spent mowing the fuckin lawns.



#11 Jeffro90

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 09:11 PM

Having been a coach for the last 6 years the biggest difference I see between the two is this. A coach is someone who "coaches" someone through a sport for a lengthy period of time. They are right there from beginning to end of that career. An instructor is like a clinician a coach brings in to teach specific techniques or fresh new training models to amp up the students training. After a clinician has done a seminar or clinic they leave. It is the responsibility of the athlete to implement those tips or it's a waste of time on both sides. In Ben's case it's not cause he'd teach drills to a monkey as long as he gets paid.

#12 Twinkie

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 09:52 PM

The biggest effect I see is being in the AMU gets you gooder. Wish I got into shooting earlier and could have done that. The finishing school for how to act like a good person would have been something useful. That and the bajillion rounds of ammo, good coaching, and the free matches and travel. Oh, and the networking! 

 

That's pretty much the only shooting school I wish I could have gone to.


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#13 ozzy

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 04:42 AM

Yep.

 

I took one of Ben's classes, has it improved me as a shooter?, yep, in that class was another guy, 'Ozzy' who has since won the, (NZ IPSC) Nationals and several other major matches.

Did Ozzy credit Ben?, not that I can recall, was he obliged to?, nope, does Ben give a rats arse that he not receive credit for others accomplishments?, I would be very surprised, Ben is not even close to the type of egotist that requires constant sphincter tickling, from what I know of him.

 

Was Ben responsible for Ozzy's progress?, no doubt to some degree.

Was Ozzy responsible for his own achievements?, fuck yes, he has put in the time, money, effort and commitment, subsidised to a degree by what he gained from the class with Ben.

 

We both attended the same class, I had been an 'only fuckin just' M for a while, Ozzy had just made M, have I won the Nationals since, fuck no, not even close.

 

Point is, and Noob nailed it, we all do this for slightly different reasons that reflect our ability and motivation, plus it fills in a Saturday afternoon that would otherwise be spent mowing the fuckin lawns.

 

Yeah taking the class with Ben really shortened the learning curve, having someone who actually knows what they are talking about critique you and point out what you're doing right/wrong makes a big difference.  Also being fairly competitive by nature certainly helps, shooting is good but it's even more fun when you're winning right?

 

Would I get to where I'm at now without it?  I'd like to think so but it would involve a lot more time, money and fuck ups.

 

That said everyone can always stand to get gooder, So Ben next time you want a subsidized holiday come on back down to NZ.



#14 Trigger Warning

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 06:03 AM

Greater than 80% of the Production National titles the last six years have gone to personnel who attended several of Ben's classes.

Stats are pretty clear!
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#15 aceinyerface

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 06:50 AM

Not sure what the thrust of this is.

The difference between a baseball coach and the shooting instructors is that the years of practice takes place under the direct, in person supervision of the coach in baseball, not so with shooting.

#16 aceinyerface

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 07:06 AM

If you haven't seen Pumping Iron, here is one of life's little lessons when it comes to competitors and advice.

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=2Hqniwefrec

#17 MemphisMechanic

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 07:26 AM

I went to Ben's class to learn what I'm doing wrong, and what the route would be to work from B up to M should I choose to do so.

I haven't chosen to put that work in yet - life is full of other things I'm investing my time into - and so I'm hovering .05% short of A class several months later.

I will say that I left his class knowing that I wasn't nearly as good as I thought I was, and exactly why. To me, that's worth the money. At some point after years in the sport we all plateau, and I know exactly the reasons I'm sitting on the B-class one, now.

That makes it much less frustrating to be here. I know it's due to a lack of proper practice, so I'm not the frustrated guy who sees M-class as something impossible to attain because no matter what he does he cannot exit _____ class.
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#18 maximis228

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 07:44 AM

Most of Alex's family competes as well. His dad and uncle are both masters.



#19 teenlaqueefah

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 07:51 AM

I do think a lot of people are delusional in thinking they can be champion by taking classes.

Those poor dumbfucks.

The way to become a champion is by buying the right gear.
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#20 shmella

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 09:49 AM

Those poor dumbfucks. The way to become a champion is by buying the right gear.

Thats the method Im using. I bought an expensive ass open gun so I can make GM this year. This cadillac open gun will shoot the course itself all I have to do is enjoy the ride... At least thats what they told me when I put my money up for it.....






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