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April BOD minutes


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#21 not that bryan

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 06:03 PM


​To be 100% honest, you will get better results by talking shit on social media.


Already did that too.

#22 not that bryan

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 06:07 PM

Under the Doctrine of Precedence, a precedent has therefore been established. It must now be legal and properly codified in the ad-hoc rulings by our official rules interpreter and scribe, Troy.

Then again, maybe you would be happier in IDPA.

The only precedence that set is that Troy doesn't know the rules or like them as they were. Not the first time Troy has made a ruling that contradicted the rule book.

At this point I'm %100 convinced that Troy is unqualified to act as DNROI.
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#23 Nimrod

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 06:08 PM

I was about to say this is an awful lot like an IDPA discussion at this point. Everyone is the fucking same. Suck it up. 



#24 jay

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 06:12 PM

Troy does have a point about people not understanding the rules. A look at his latest ruling clearly demonstrates that he would be inlcuded.

​I am not surprised the BOD is looking at fucking with production. It is working well as it is so clearly it needs to be fixed.


His rulings contradict the rule book, he ignores his own rulings and makes up shit as he goes.


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#25 Fishyjoe

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 06:17 PM

I'm inclined to disagree. I think this falls under natural law which states "it's not a crime unless you get caught." He got caught. Bryan fined him his match fee and sent him to open under his own recognizance to contemplate where he went wrong in life. While getting his ass stomped in open, the shooter in question decided to appeal.

Does USPSA have an appeal fee similar to IDPA? You know "the pay us to deal with your petty bullshit for trying shoot an angle fee of $100?" Perhaps they should, the douche in question should put their money where their mouth is. Once NROI makes a ruling, the winner of the sissy fight is awarded the hundo. If the shooter wins the challenge the RO in question must make a public apology on doodie as part of their penance. In addition the offending club will waive the shooters match fee the next year as well as provide a caddy to carry the shooters gear and handle all pasting duty for the shooter for providing sub par service and tarded RO's.

#26 Doc

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 06:20 PM

So much butt hurt in this thread...
Unload and Show Clear...
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It pins my irony meter when people post things like "your to stupid..."

You brought a rifle to a handgun competition?

#27 GuanoLoco

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 06:45 PM

The only precedence that set is that Troy doesn't know the rules or like them as they were. Not the first time Troy has made a ruling that contradicted the rule book.

At this point I'm %100 convinced that Troy is unqualified to act as DNROI.


Much like presidential executive orders versus properly enacted, Constitutionally valid laws, I would prefer that the BOD took or declined action in such matters.
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#28 Just Some Random Hoser

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 07:41 PM

I see the point they are making though. To follow the rules as they are now, every MD and Chrono RO will have to know every part of every Prod gun. They have to know what parts are legal and which are not, that is a lot of parts and a lot guns. Compound that with factory, semi-factory, factory specials, etc... and it is a real mess. Just like proving that I am not using a 17 frame with a 34 slide, that is not legal but how do you prove I am legal or not?

I have never seen these rules really enforced or guns even inspected at any match I have shot. I can only recall one match where the gun was weighed and that was after a shit fit was thrown about a certain Taurus.

All three Productions Nationals i shot the gun was weighted, but, in Tulsa, Tori's was not....I was on her squad. That was before she was busted with shooting steel challenge ammo instead of USPSA ammo...just saying. Maybe the rules don't apply to name brand high profile shooters.
Both Area matches I shot, Area 5 and 6 they weighted my gun.
I hate to say this, cause I don't wanna sound like some prick, but the gun can only take you so far, you really do have to put the work in to become A Class and Master.....and jeez, if ya wanna make GM you gotta find a unicorn to blow once or twice a month.....me; I just squeezed my way in B Class, unfortunately.

#29 Sad Sack

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 07:56 PM

Amidon:  Dumb.

McManus:  Dumber.

Production:  Dumbest.


No one likes me, and I don't care.


#30 Suck It Trebek

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 10:36 PM

In this age of digital rulebooks and virtual range lawyers, would it be impossible to not only name each approved model but also include an image of it for the curious RO or backstabbing asshole squadmate who is hoping to knife a superior shooter?  And in this, avoid production becoming ghetto limited.

That would be ghetto limited 10 minor actually.

 

But just to play devil's advocate for a moment, what would really be the detriment of the division to allow external mods?  If it fits in the box, has iron sights, no optics, no comp, no added magwell, and makes weight, is their really a problem?  If someone wants to dump their hard earned pesos into a milled out Glock with every doodad replaced and full stippled everything, is it a threat to the European unicorn wunderguns?  Or even in the Tanfo's and CZ's that already swap and sneak parts in once other guns get on the production list, so now it is ok on theirs, what would be the big deal of a few lightening cuts in the slide?


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#31 Trigger Warning

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 04:42 AM

I hear you but my point was that tossing out the mods rule due to ignorance of RO's/shooters is not really much of a justification if that ignorance could be cured by putting the necessary information in front of those people.  I'm not a production shooter, but the idea that the guns would be by rules essentially production guns I thought was designed to have a division where a mod race would not occur, and the newish shooter could be assured his gun was basically an equal tool to those he competes against.  However, I could be totally wrong on those assumptions.


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#32 aceinyerface

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 05:11 AM

Faggoty mods- compensators, optics, mag wells, any other gay bullshit

Reasonable mods- decent trigger, decent sights, grips.

I don't see anything that has deviated from Production's standard of allowing reasonable mods.

"This company offers custom parts on guns from the factory (except you can't get those factory guns in the US, so in reality, people are just ordering the custom parts and putting them on themselves) but this company has a custom shop (where they will customize a gun or sell you the parts to do it yourself) and that doesn't meet the standard" that argument is gay.

HQ moved in a less homosexual direction, I don't see a problem.
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#33 Suck It Trebek

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 05:18 AM

Some people are just naturally going to tinker with their gear, or pay someone to Dremel tool it for them.  Even documenting this, that, and the other thing of what's legal and what isn't, just leads to the next level of how much modifying can be done and still be in the rules, or just not get caught, or "sleeper" mods that look stock, but definitely aren't.  So why not have an equitable, and enforceable set of rules in plain wording?

 

I get the idea of a division where someone feels they can not be at an equipment handicap, but Production isn't that today.  A box stock Glock with factory mags is not on a level playing field with tuned DA/SA steel frame guns with weighted basepads.  And a Fobus holster with Uncle Mike's mag pouches isn't as good for competition as bullets out Ghost pouches with a BOSS hanger and holster setup.  But they are close enough that we say, "Fuck-it, go play here, and if you get serious, you can spend more money on gear."


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#34 aceinyerface

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 06:20 AM

You can tune a Glock for the cost of a new connector and some metal polish.

A Glock is always within a percentage point of winning prod nationals.

Noobs who FEEL they are at a disadvantage or that they have to spend several paychecks are mistaken.
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#35 redrider

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 06:20 AM

-keep holster, belt and such rules the same.

-minor only scoring

-no mag well, no comp, no optic

-stipple only on removable grip pannels. grip tape anywhere.

-tighten up the weight to be within 1oz of stated weight from manufacturer

-a size box test

-zero slide or frame modifications but for sight cut

-10 or 15 rounds, i don't care

-no list of approve or not. just a resource that shows a guns stated weight from the manufacturer

-if external hammer, must start hammer down


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#36 peterthefish

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 06:52 AM

-keep holster, belt and such rules the same.
-minor only scoring
-no mag well, no comp, no optic
-stipple only on removable grip pannels. grip tape anywhere.
-tighten up the weight to be within 1oz of stated weight from manufacturer
-a size box test
-zero slide or frame modifications but for sight cut
-10 or 15 rounds, i don't care
-no list of approve or not. just a resource that shows a guns stated weight from the manufacturer
-if external hammer, must start hammer down

Once those changes are made, introduce a "Stock" division which only lets you shoot completely stock guns, and start the whole Production dance all over again.
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#37 GuanoLoco

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 07:22 AM

-keep holster, belt and such rules the same.
-minor only scoring
-no mag well, no comp, no optic
-stipple only on removable grip pannels. grip tape anywhere.
-tighten up the weight to be within 1oz of stated weight from manufacturer
-a size box test
-zero slide or frame modifications but for sight cut
-10 or 15 rounds, i don't care
-no list of approve or not. just a resource that shows a guns stated weight from the manufacturer
-if external hammer, must start hammer down


Some manufacturers will promptly start gaming stated weights for competition guns, for example, overstating or shipping with tungsten grip plugs.
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#38 GuanoLoco

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 07:23 AM

Once those changes are made, introduce a "Stock" division which only lets you shoot completely stock guns, and start the whole Production dance all over again.


Even n00bs don't want to show up with and shoot a stock gun.
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#39 Sweet T

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 07:27 AM

 

  A box stock Glock with factory mags is not on a level playing field with tuned DA/SA steel frame guns with weighted basepads.  

 

 

lol


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#40 Alfred Salveti

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 07:36 AM

Can somebody just go back and give poor Charlie Vaneck an apology. I mean, the guy moved the pivot pin on a Glock trigger then filled it in with puddy....it looked the same but he got called out specifically and his trigger declared illegal. Of course now a couple other makers do the same thing and Troy has declared in emails or match decisions it is legal. I think what it comes down to is what does Troy or Mike think.

Yeah, I'd like to see the Vaneck trigger legal.

But with the latest ruling I'd really like to see some of these aluminum trigger pads legal too. Heck, I'd like to sand a bit on the trigger safety but I think some RO might say since that's not specifically allowed that is illegal. I mean, that's what the rule book says...if it's not specifically permited it is illegal.

I guess I can buy a Beretta from Wilson which is now an OFM Beretta maker and Wilson can put a punch of parts on it and round the trigger guard, or change change slide configurations but I can't round the mag button on my glock because there is no Glock Custom OFM shop.

Who knows, maybe Zev's check is in the mail.

Production is pretty jacked. At this point I'd like to see weight limits, length/width limits, size of mag opening, mag capacity, prohibit red dots and comps and leave it at that...since for some guns like Beretta or CZ that's pretty much the rule anyway.
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