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Race Production division


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#41 GuanoLoco

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 12:22 PM

1t430d.jpg

 

If someone photoshops Troy's face on Oprah's, you'll win the internet

 

I want to waller out my Stock 2 magwells like MemphisMechanic did (Benos thread) because this sounds like a much more effective use of my time that reloading practice with a stock magwell.  

 

Where is this clarification published?


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#42 McFuckPants

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 12:41 PM

More of the same stuff with DNROI ignoring the rulebook.

App D4 21.2b prohibits milling of slides other than to install sights.

This is why some of us were so upset about the hammer decision. DNROI, Pres, and BOD, blatantly ignoring the rulebook.

What's next? Since they are ok with ignoring the rule book and rule change process set forth in the bylaws there is no way to know what they want to change next. If you don't care about production just wait until they decide to mess with your favorite division.

 

When they came for Production, 

I remained silent;

I was not a Production shooter.

 

When they came for Carry Optics, 

I remained silent;

I was not a Carry Optics shooter.

 

When they came for Open, 

I remained silent;

I was not a Open shooter.

 

When they came for Limited, 

I remained silent;

I was not an Limited shooter.

 

When they came for Revolver, 

I remained silent;

I was not a Revolver shooter.

 

When they came for Single Stack, 

there was no one left to speak out.


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#43 Motosapiens

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 12:43 PM

 

When they came for Single Stack, 

there was no one left to speak out.

it won't bother me one bit if they decide to allow bull barrels in SS.


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#44 Sweet T

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 12:49 PM

Published? Come now, my good man. No need to stand on ceremony among friends.

Eschew the bonds of such rigid formalities as a rulebook (indeed pardon me for even mentioning the outmoded old rag) and instead simply produce a copy of electronic mail correspondence betwixt DNROI and a third party which verily authorizes the desired modification to one's sidearm.
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#45 aceinyerface

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 12:52 PM

Well, there you go. "Production" is as meaningless a word now as everyone's favorite "irregardless." 

 

"Production" means no enhancements that matter.

 

Fags want to customize their shit, OK, won't make up for their general suckitude so it doesn't matter.

 

Enhancements that might matter are not allowed; like...

Enormous faggoty mag wells, not allowed

Compensators to tame the viscous recoil of minor power factor, not allowed

Optics are dumb, so no

General retarditry, not allowed

 

Make the shit reliable, lighten the trigger and maybe tighten up the accuracy- like any red blooded 'Merican would do on any gun they own... Allowed

 

Panties in a twist online- unavoidable


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#46 MemphisMechanic

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 01:50 PM

I want to waller out my Stock 2 magwells like MemphisMechanic did (Benos thread) because this sounds like a much more effective use of my time that reloading practice with a stock magwell.

Where is this clarification published?


Want a copy of my emails with Troy? PM me your email addy.
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#47 Tanfastic

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 02:53 PM

"Production" means no enhancements that matter.

 

Fags want to customize their shit, OK, won't make up for their general suckitude so it doesn't matter.

 

Enhancements that might matter are not allowed; like...

Enormous faggoty mag wells, not allowed

Compensators to tame the viscous recoil of minor power factor, not allowed

Optics are dumb, so no

General retarditry, not allowed

 

Make the shit reliable, lighten the trigger and maybe tighten up the accuracy- like any red blooded 'Merican would do on any gun they own... Allowed

 

Panties in a twist online- unavoidable

 

Exactly!  As and RO I don't know or care if the hammer on your gun was original or not, and you can't say it doesn't matter at an L1 match but matters at Nationals IF YOU ARE ALSO a person bitching about "De Rules!  De Rules!" (use your best Herve Villechaize voice here).  If it's not practically enforceable at an L1 match, then it has no business being IN the rules in the first place without guidelines on how to enforce them.  For example, if you say "No aftermarket hammers", then every fucking gun on the Production list needs a published photographic reference of every hammer that IS allowed on the gun, and that needs to be accessible by every RO during a match.  Obviously that's not realistic, so....  Stick with the big picture items that matter, enforce them rigorously and ruthlessly right down to the L1 match level, and then it's fair and equitable for all.  If tweakers wanna tweak their shit, it INCREASES the enjoyment of the sport, and if you're not a tweaker then don't tweak and just shoot your shit how it came from the factory.  It won't affect the match performance one way or another as long as the big-ticket items mentioned previously are not allowed to be changed, and all of those things are obvious to even the most bleary-eyed of RO's.  Granted, some can't count to 10, but that's a different issue.


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#48 CheesyD

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 02:53 PM

Want a copy of my emails with Troy? PM me your email addy.


No one fucking cares dude. You carved on an expensive ass gun with nothing but an email as proof. Cool for you.


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#49 not that bryan

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 03:45 PM

Exactly! As and RO I don't know or care if the hammer on your gun was original or not, and you can't say it doesn't matter at an L1 match but matters at Nationals IF YOU ARE ALSO a person bitching about "De Rules! De Rules!" (use your best Herve Villechaize voice here). If it's not practically enforceable at an L1 match, then it has no business being IN the rules in the first place without guidelines on how to enforce them. For example, if you say "No aftermarket hammers", then every fucking gun on the Production list needs a published photographic reference of every hammer that IS allowed on the gun, and that needs to be accessible by every RO during a match. Obviously that's not realistic, so.... Stick with the big picture items that matter, enforce them rigorously and ruthlessly right down to the L1 match level, and then it's fair and equitable for all. If tweakers wanna tweak their shit, it INCREASES the enjoyment of the sport, and if you're not a tweaker then don't tweak and just shoot your shit how it came from the factory. It won't affect the match performance one way or another as long as the big-ticket items mentioned previously are not allowed to be changed, and all of those things are obvious to even the most bleary-eyed of RO's. Granted, some can't count to 10, but that's a different issue.


I agree with most of this. I think the problem is not the parts being allowed, but USPSA leadership creating rulings that conflict with the rule book.
Do it the right way and I've got no issue with it.
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#50 MilkMyDuds

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 04:16 PM

The ironic part for me is, I sent DNORI an email asking if a Tanfoglio factory part made for Stock 2 is production legal on my Stock 2, and I have not got any response after 3 months...  I guess silence means "yes".



#51 GuanoLoco

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 04:26 PM

No one fucking cares dude. You carved on an expensive ass gun with nothing but an email as proof. Cool for you. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



More seriously, where are all these ruling and clarifications posted, and what level of authority comes with an informal (e.g. e-mail) DNROI clarification / ruling / executive order?

For this particular example, what's the chance of the BOD or some future DNROI 'walking back' some informal / unpublished DNROI ruling, resulting in an expensive, competition-illegal frame modification?

Yes, I know people have been quietly carving on the insides of metal and plastic magwells since Production came to be, but I've never heard of anyone getting busted to Open for it.

Yes, I realize that the Beard/BOD/DNROI probably don't want to be lynched, tarred and feathered, rode out on a rail, or torch & pitchforked by adventurous people who did so.

But the rules are the rules. Or are they???


Nothing sexxxier that a wallered out out hole on a gun you cannot use in your division of choice (Production).


IMG_0316.thumb.JPG.8ca646df0efed6951d732
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#52 TeamMassengillTactical

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 04:36 PM

I think the only thing preventing me from shooting whatever I want in whatever division I want is simply that I won't create a fake email between myself and DNROI and print that shit out.
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#53 u sofa king we todd ed

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 04:51 PM

Bring. Back. Amidon!



#54 Peally

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 04:52 PM

I think it's hilarious we even have a guy that answers emailed questions about division rules. This isn't stock car racing and this isn't complex; if someone doesn't understand the div rules 9 times out of 10 they're probably a person that belongs in a school for extremely special people.

 

Start charging cash to send in questions and let's monetize this endeavor. Alternatively, write the problem user names down and if they win anything (highly doubtful) tear their gun apart the day after the match for detailed engineering inspection, with heavy fines and penalties if they fail. If they want to make it stock car racing let's do eeeet!

 

It's clear Troy doesn't have the time or interest to deal with the bullshit based on his wacky tobaccy answers. Might as well cash in and bring in some of those Marlboro sponsor dollars we're missing out on.



#55 MilkMyDuds

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 05:03 PM

I think the range lawyers are to blame - often times some guy comes with a factory part for a production gun that the lawyers have not seen before.  They intimidate/threaten the guy that the part is not legal, and will be DQed in a major match.  Then the guy sends an email to Troy.... 



#56 MemphisMechanic

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 05:22 PM

No one fucking cares dude. You carved on an expensive ass gun with nothing but an email as proof. Cool for you.


I never expected anyone but Guano to care. Glad to see I wasn't disappointed.

If it's suddenly ruled illegal, I'll buy another Tanfo. I'll survive my decision just fine.

But at this rate, we'll be milling our slides in ghetto limited next year, because the Walther has a sexy shark-gilled slide so your Accu-HiPoint is allowed to go under the knife to get some, too.
I won an IDPA match once. It was neat.

#57 Motosapiens

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 05:47 PM

Exactly!  As and RO I don't know or care if the hammer on your gun was original or not, and you can't say it doesn't matter at an L1 match but matters at Nationals IF YOU ARE ALSO a person bitching about "De Rules!  De Rules!" (use your best Herve Villechaize voice here).  If it's not practically enforceable at an L1 match, then it has no business being IN the rules in the first place without guidelines on how to enforce them.  For example, if you say "No aftermarket hammers", then every fucking gun on the Production list needs a published photographic reference of every hammer that IS allowed on the gun, and that needs to be accessible by every RO during a match.  Obviously that's not realistic, so....  Stick with the big picture items that matter, enforce them rigorously and ruthlessly right down to the L1 match level, and then it's fair and equitable for all.  If tweakers wanna tweak their shit, it INCREASES the enjoyment of the sport, and if you're not a tweaker then don't tweak and just shoot your shit how it came from the factory.  It won't affect the match performance one way or another as long as the big-ticket items mentioned previously are not allowed to be changed, and all of those things are obvious to even the most bleary-eyed of RO's.  Granted, some can't count to 10, but that's a different issue.

 

You suck far less than everyone else on this forum. I want to bring you a homebrew if you are shooting A3 next week and have a web-crush on you.


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#58 Motosapiens

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 05:47 PM

But at this rate, we'll be milling our slides in ghetto limited next year, because the Walther has a sexy shark-gilled slide so your Accu-HiPoint is allowed to go under the knife to get some, too.

 

which would be fine with me, since it won't make you shoot any better, and will help the economy when you screw it up and have to buy a new slide.


2013 National Champion C class  Limited 10


#59 GuanoLoco

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 05:49 PM

Thanks, MM.  

 

All: Looks like this was hashed out a long time ago, but never made it into the rules or "official, published NROI clarifications", at least not that I can find (maybe it is an old Front Sight or something).  

 

Relevant APPENDIX D4 — Production Division rules:

22 Specifically prohibited Please note that the absence of an item in the list of modifications and features prohibited modifications MAY NOT be construed to mean a modification is allowed. A modification is only allowed in Production Division if there is a rules clause or interpretation which specifically declares that it is allowed in the Division.

  • 22.4 Magwell opening The longitudinal (front-to-back) dimension of the opening may be more than 1/4” greater than the corresponding dimension of a magazine. External flaring remains PROHIBITED.

Special conditions:

 

UNLESS a modification is SPECIFICALLY authorized in the rules or SPECIFICALLY authorized in an official, published NROI interpretation, it is considered a PROHIBITED MODIFICATION.

 

PER THE RULES this modification is unclear at best and illegal at worst.  

 

But, we have this unofficial and unpublished DNROI email clarifying the matter.  If you have a link to a published statement, please pass it along.

 

On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 10:14 PM, Troy McManus <dnroi@uspsa.org> wrote:

 

As long as you don't create any external flaring, the inside of the magwell may be smoothed and contoured, rough edges removed, etc.  Additions such as the Sevigny speedway are also allowed.  These are considered internal modifications as long as they do not create any external flaring of the entrance of the mag well.

  

Troy

 

I wasn't familiar with the "Sevigny Speedway".  It looks like most original web links, etc. are gone but I found this link from 12/2011 and a copy of an old post from our very own perennial favorite and USPSA Rules SME: Caleb at GunNuts.  

 

http://gunnuts.net/2...vigny-speedway/  (note: Dead link and I can't find the article on the current web site)

 
The Sevigny Speedway
December 9, 2011
By Caleb

I’ve mentioned that I have all my Glocks modified by Southpaw Custom several times now.  After trying guns with and without the Sevigny Speedway, there’s just no way I’d ever run a gun without it.

sevigny-speedway-0021-300x286.jpg

The Sevigny Speedway takes the “lip” out of the back of the Glock’s magazine well, increasing the effective reloading area by something like 25%. It’s named forDave Sevigny (duh) who uses the Speedway on his competition Glocks in USPSA Production, Limited, and the Pro-Am. Because the Speedway isn’t an “external” modification, it is legal for USPSA Production for the time being. For IDPA however, it’s considered an “add on magazine well” which means that having the Speedway on your guns automatically places them in ESP or CDP depending on caliber.

The downside to the Speedway is that if you lose the ability to attach a lanyard to your pistol.  I wish I was joking, but the first time I talked about the Speedway, someone sent us an email at Gun Nuts HQ bitching about how he couldn’t apply a lanyard to a pistol that had the speedway.  To each their own, I suppose.  In all seriousness however, the Speedway is a permanent modification to your Glock.  Unlike a grip plug which can be removed, the Speedway is forever.  Since “custom” Glocks don’t exactly bring a lot of resale value, get the Speedway if you’re committed to keeping this gun for a long time.  Of course, when you start doing reloads with a gun that has this modification you’ll want to keep it forever.

Adding the Sevigny Speedway corrects one of the few things I don’t like about Glocks – the restriction on the magwell due to that lip.  It’s like buying skill because you’ll find yourself fumbling fewer reloads and sticking your existing reloads even faster.  If you’re serious about running a Glock in IDPA or USPSA competition, you need this mod.

 

 


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#60 Peally

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 05:50 PM

There's already too many tards with nonfunctional guns I gotta wait for.




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