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Watch the trigger "adjustment" happen in real time.


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#21 Ben

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 09:31 PM

I'm disappointed in Scott Springer. Aftermarket hammers have never been legal in production in the time I've been shooting which covers the last 2 rulebooks.

It seems like the only ones trying to state otherwise are the ones who are trying to sell you a replacement part.


Wanna buy a hammer?
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#22 Sweet T

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 09:41 PM

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#23 Sweet T

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 09:42 PM

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#24 Slow250

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 10:53 PM

This thread basically steels my resolve to only shoot Glocks.  The whole concept of rules are rules, but you can pretty much get an exemption to policy for what you want to do is ridiculous, especially in "production."

 

At a minimum, these responses that are allowing guys to break the rules should be serialized and released via the website, so that they can actually be implemented across the board.  From my viewpoint, it seems like there are bunch of dudes running around with emails or "letters" up to a decade old that gives them their own options. 

 

In case it isn't painfully clear, that does not help legitimacy of the sport.


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#25 not that bryan

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 03:54 AM

I'd challenge Scott Springer to show any rule or ruling that states that reproductions of factory parts are legal. Simply put you can not, they do not exist. Neither the rulebook or previous rulings allow aftermarket parts in production with one exception. There was a ruling from Amidon that stated aftermarket mag catches were legal so long as they only changed the length.

#26 not that bryan

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 03:57 AM

This thread basically steels my resolve to only shoot Glocks. The whole concept of rules are rules, but you can pretty much get an exemption to policy for what you want to do is ridiculous, especially in "production."

At a minimum, these responses that are allowing guys to break the rules should be serialized and released via the website, so that they can actually be implemented across the board. From my viewpoint, it seems like there are bunch of dudes running around with emails or "letters" up to a decade old that gives them their own options.

In case it isn't painfully clear, that does not help legitimacy of the sport.

This is exactly why the rules require a published ruling or rule to support a change.
You have an email from Gray guns or Springer Precision stating that DNROI says their trigger is legal? Guess what, unless you can show a rule or ruling in the rule book, uspsa website, or front sight magazine, then it is still an illegal part and welcome to open.

This is why the current direction of changes being made by DNROI (and the Pres and BOD) through "adjustments" is bad for the sport. The rule book clearly says one thing, but the rulings say another.

#27 not that bryan

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 04:06 AM

Wanna buy a hammer?


Not unless the ones I have now break. So far the CZ competition hammer is working great, 5.5lb DA / 2.5lb SA and 60,000 rounds (plus dry fire) on my primary practice gun and still going strong.

#28 Buck Turgidson

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 04:11 AM

IPSC production rules are looking better and better


I need something to do while shooting, and thinking about titties is too distracting  - Stubb


#29 Mike Foley

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 06:33 AM

This is exactly why the rules require a published ruling or rule to support a change.
You have an email from Gray guns or Springer Precision stating that DNROI says their trigger is legal? Guess what, unless you can show a rule or ruling in the rule book, uspsa website, or front sight magazine, then it is still an illegal part and welcome to open.

This is why the current direction of changes being made by DNROI (and the Pres and BOD) through "adjustments" is bad for the sport. The rule book clearly says one thing, but the rulings say another.


Hey, not current, (proof it has always happened), not a direction, and for the record I referred him to the current Production rules. I'm willing to let all of you wallow in this mess, until everyone realizes what's broken and how unenforceable it all is, and how it is never going to stop. Trying to explain this to a new guy is a freaking joke. Someone will have to bring this to the board. I'm guessing that's DNROI. I vote ninth and last. I'm finished talking about it there and here. That's right, you win, you win the prize of a screwed up mess that has been snowballing since it started, long before you got here. The entire idea of this division was unenforceable after the first model change, upgrade, or factory lie. Scrambling around to be reactive to every gun over the life of that gun and learn what the truth is is no longer possible. There are at least three camps here: bone stock (no feasible way to manage what this is), limited to action types (pretty wide open and becomes like Limited light pretty quickly), and status quo (creates the most confusion and dissent). I'm willing to accept any of them. I'm willing to shoot any of them. So are most others. You may have just scared the board into letting this fester, otherwise they'll do something someone's not going to like, as usual. USPSA continues on, and that's my main focus.
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#30 peterthefish

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 06:45 AM

Bump em all to open and let God sort it out.
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#31 Mike Foley

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 06:47 AM

Bump em all to open and let God sort it out.


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#32 Sweet T

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:28 AM

Hey, not current, (proof it has always happened), not a direction, and for the record I referred him to the current Production rules. I'm willing to let all of you wallow in this mess, until everyone realizes what's broken and how unenforceable it all is, and how it is never going to stop. Trying to explain this to a new guy is a freaking joke. Someone will have to bring this to the board. I'm guessing that's DNROI. I vote ninth and last. I'm finished talking about it there and here. That's right, you win, you win the prize of a screwed up mess that has been snowballing since it started, long before you got here. The entire idea of this division was unenforceable after the first model change, upgrade, or factory lie. Scrambling around to be reactive to every gun over the life of that gun and learn what the truth is is no longer possible. There are at least three camps here: bone stock (no feasible way to manage what this is), limited to action types (pretty wide open and becomes like Limited light pretty quickly), and status quo (creates the most confusion and dissent). I'm willing to accept any of them. I'm willing to shoot any of them. So are most others. You may have just scared the board into letting this fester, otherwise they'll do something someone's not going to like, as usual. USPSA continues on, and that's my main focus.



#33 snark

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:40 AM

Here ya go -- "If aftermarket hammers are available for Gun Model X, they must be visibly marked as such or Gun Model X is not allowed in Production"

 

The marketplace will fix that shit right quick.  It's the manufacturers that started it, they can fix it.


Use the rules. Don't DQ someone who doesn't do anything DQable. -- Da Beard.

 


#34 Sweet T

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:43 AM

 and status quo (creates the most confusion and dissent). 
 

 

Alright Mike, this one made me roll my eyes right out of my skull.
 
The status quo seemed to be working okay in the fastest growing division, pre-hammergate.  
 
The rules were more or less evenly applied, and they struck a fair balance between inclusiveness and exclusiveness of equipment.
 
Most guys who are not cheating dirtbags followed the rules.  Every now and again a guy not in compliance would get bumped to open, creating a reminder and incentive to follow the rules.  The rules were enforced as much by fellow competitors as by formal RO staff, through an informal overlapping oversight model.
 
 
Unfortunately for production division, leadership created (and continues to fuel) a perception that the rules were unsettled and up for debate, prompting every guy with a pet modification wishlist to come with his hand out.  This has morphed into a full blown debate on production, and it becomes increasingly unclear where production is headed and what it will look like.
 
The perception that the rules are flexible or up for debate has trickled down through the sport.  I recall a certain match that substituted the popper calibration rules for their own.  What do you think emboldened them?
 
This is doing very public, and very real damage to the credibility of the USPSA ruleset, which historically enjoyed a good reputation on the objectivity of rules, especially relative to some competing .orgs.
 
Bottom line, I think it's disingenuous to upset the production apple cart, and then blame the confusion and dissent on the status quo.  

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#35 Doc

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:47 AM

I understand the frustration - on everyone's part.

At the moment it's impossible for the chrono guy or any other match official to enforce the Production rules pertaining to gun models and allowable smithing and outright modifications.

The only possible way would involve a massive branching flow chart listing all possible models and mods and near or complete gun disassembles. To prevent liability, the guys doing the disassembly would need to be licensed gunsmiths and insured so guns could be returned to their owners in working condition.

That, of course is unworkable.

There is a fourth way forward, Mike.

Pare down the equipment specs to easily verifiable tests.
Fits in a box with mag inserted.
Max/minimum weight empty.
Safe Action, DA/SA ONLY. Specified minimum trigger pulls for SA, DA/SA.
No removal of safeties or changing the mechanism of their function. The competitor will disassemble their gun for any range official that asks in a safe are to demonstrate compliance. Illegal modification of safety not a bump to open, but a match DQ instead. Because safety.
No optics. No ports. No compensators. No muzzle brakes.
Mag capacity limit (10/15, just pick one, it doesn't matter which)
Whatever other things that make Production 'production' that can be easily discerned without disassembly.

People want to stipple the fuck out of the gun? Don't care.
People want to add/remove weight, slide/frame cuts? If it makes weight, don't care.
People want a fancy trigger? If it makes the minimum trigger pull, don't care.
People want to swap their trigger for another shape? Don't care.
People want a gas pedal? If it fits in the box, don't care.
People want a sight system that looks like a penis framed by a vagina? Don't care.
People want a cone/bushing or a barrel with hard pink anodization? Don't care.
People want...

How about we all just put on our big boy pants and admit that Production is broken and that it never again will be the 'Entry Division'? The arms race is on and will continue. It can't be stopped.

Because competition.

Because manufacturers.

One more thing...

No letters from anyone certifying this or that mod compliance. If the rule set is simplified, between the box and trigger gauge, they simply won't be needed anyway.

Chrono guy needs a scale (he has one already), a Production box (he has one already) and a trigger pull gauge (the only addition needed for enforcement).

Boom.

Done.
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It pins my irony meter when people post things like "your to stupid..."

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#36 Mike Foley

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:52 AM

I understand the frustration - on everyone's part.
At the moment it's impossible for the chrono guy or any other match official to enforce the Production rules pertaining to gun models and allowable smithing and outright modifications.
The only possible way would involve a massive branching flow chart listing all possible models and mods and near or complete gun disassembles. To prevent liability, the guys doing the disassembly would need to be licensed gunsmiths and insured so guns could be returned to their owners in working condition.
That, of course is unworkable.
There is a fourth way forward, Mike.
Pare down the equipment specs to easily verifiable tests.
Fits in a box with mag inserted.
Max/minimum weight empty.
Safe Action, DA/SA ONLY. Specified minimum trigger pulls for SA, DA/SA.
No removal of safeties or changing the mechanism of their function. The competitor will disassemble their gun for any range official that asks in a safe are to demonstrate compliance. Illegal modification of safety not a bump to open, but a match DQ instead. Because safety.
No optics. No ports. No compensators. No muzzle brakes.
Mag capacity limit (10/15, just pick one, it doesn't matter which)
Whatever other things that make Production 'production' that can be easily discerned without disassembly.
People want to stipple the fuck out of the gun? Don't care.
People want to add/remove weight, slide/frame cuts? If it makes weight, don't care.
People want a fancy trigger? If it makes the minimum trigger pull, don't care.
People want to swap their trigger for another shape? Don't care.
People want a gas pedal? If it fits in the box, don't care.
People want a sight system that looks like a penis framed by a vagina? Don't care.
People want a cone/bushing or a barrel with hard pink anodization? Don't care.
People want...
How about we all just put on our big boy pants and admit that Production is broken and that it never again will be the 'Entry Division'? The arms race is on and will continue. It can't be stopped.
Because competition.
Because manufacturers.
One more thing...
No letters from anyone certifying this or that mod compliance. If the rule set is simplified, between the box and trigger gauge, they simply won't be needed anyway.
Chrono guy needs a scale (he has one already), a Production box (he has one already) and a trigger pull gauge (the only addition needed fore enforcement).
Boom.
Done.



It's no secret that this is my preference at this point, but I'm not exerting my opinion into the process.
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#37 Peally

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:53 AM

If competitors can't prove a part is legal (because that's THEIR burden upon request) bump the fuckfaces to open. Production is not difficult, if the part you're putting on isn't stock, on a stock gun from the company, or so damn identical not even God cares, you take that part and either A: shove it square up your ass or B: go shoot another fucking division.

 

Most of these disphits feel the need to swap parts instead of actually practicing and being even remotely competent at shooting. I'm fine with losing them to IDPA.


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#38 Mike Foley

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:58 AM

If competitors can't prove a part is legal (because that's THEIR burden upon request) bump the fuckfaces to open. Production is not difficult, if the part you're putting on isn't stock, on a stock gun from the company, or so damn identical not even God cares, you take that part and either A: shove it square up your ass or B: go shoot another fucking division.

Most of these disphits feel the need to swap parts instead of actually practicing and being even remotely competent at shooting. I'm fine with losing them to IDPA.


So, don't ask, don't tell, drama at 11?
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#39 not that bryan

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:03 AM

Hey, not current, (proof it has always happened), not a direction, and for the record I referred him to the current Production rules. I'm willing to let all of you wallow in this mess, until everyone realizes what's broken and how unenforceable it all is, and how it is never going to stop. Trying to explain this to a new guy is a freaking joke. Someone will have to bring this to the board. I'm guessing that's DNROI. I vote ninth and last. I'm finished talking about it there and here. That's right, you win, you win the prize of a screwed up mess that has been snowballing since it started, long before you got here. The entire idea of this division was unenforceable after the first model change, upgrade, or factory lie. Scrambling around to be reactive to every gun over the life of that gun and learn what the truth is is no longer possible. There are at least three camps here: bone stock (no feasible way to manage what this is), limited to action types (pretty wide open and becomes like Limited light pretty quickly), and status quo (creates the most confusion and dissent). I'm willing to accept any of them. I'm willing to shoot any of them. So are most others. You may have just scared the board into letting this fester, otherwise they'll do something someone's not going to like, as usual. USPSA continues on, and that's my main focus.


Did this rambling rant have a point?

It seems to me that you and Troy are the only ones I see claiming that the division as it is defined in the rule book was unenforcable.

Even if I set that point aside, how have the recent rulings made it more easily enforced? Now a shooter or RO can not read the rule book and understand the rules. It's now less clear.
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#40 jay

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:06 AM

How about Production is how it came from the store.

You buy a gun, show up and shoot it, start changing shit, get out of Production and shoot limited, don't like to shoot limited, don't put the latest and greatest whiz bang shit on your gun.

 

Did this rambling rant have a point?

It seems to me that you and Troy are the only ones I see claiming that the division as it is defined in the rule book was unenforcable.

Even if I set that point aside, how have the recent rulings made it more easily enforced? Now a shooter or RO can not read the rule book and understand the rules. It's now less clear.

Troy thinks the RO's are too fucking stupid to read and understand the rules, maybe Mike thinks they are too.






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