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Watch the trigger "adjustment" happen in real time.


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#41 Doc

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:06 AM

Chasing/approving/denying mods as they appear from manufacturers has proven to be a looser.

New trigger shape.
New hammer profile.
New barrel lockup.

Fuck all of that.

Simplify and let the actual shooting sort it out.
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It pins my irony meter when people post things like "your to stupid..."

You brought a rifle to a handgun competition?

#42 peterthefish

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:10 AM

But then no one could afford to play in production.

#43 Mike Foley

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:16 AM

Did this rambling rant have a point?

It seems to me that you and Troy are the only ones I see claiming that the division as it is defined in the rule book was unenforcable.

Even if I set that point aside, how have the recent rulings made it more easily enforced? Now a shooter or RO can not read the rule book and understand the rules. It's now less clear.


Yes, the point is that your delusion is that we have an agenda, and we really don't have time to address the issues or even reply to the emails that roll in daily from members asking if things are legal and pleading their case. At what point is the market for production division actually the upfitters market? USPSA Production is a house divided, and no one wants the masses to vote because then they'd have to live with what extreme the market chooses. I got that way before you joined the discussion. Largest difference, you blame Troy, me, and the board. We spend way less time thinking about this than you do. We have a lot going on and this isn't even close to the number one priority, though the questions don't stop. I'd tell Troy to just say no to everyone who asks until that faction rises up and fights its own fight at this point. When I answer these now, I refer to the rulebook and the proceed to fight with the guy asking the question. House divided, everybody can't win. The mainstream market is no longer stock. Revolver and Single Stack shooters understand this is just history repeating itself, and that the equipment race exists at the manufacturer. Denying a guy to upfit his Glock, but allowing him to run a Shadow 2 or Stock 2 with trigger mods, seems really dumb to a lot of people.
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#44 peterthefish

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:27 AM

Liar.

#45 Doc

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:27 AM

The mainstream market is no longer stock. Revolver and Single Stack shooters understand this is just history repeating itself, and that the equipment race exists at the manufacturer. Denying a guy to upfit his Glock, but allowing him to run a Shadow 2 or Stock 2 with trigger mods, seems really dumb to a lot of people.


Quoted for truth.

So fucking much hand wringing.

People want to include every exception, every ruling, every letter, every email, every single decision in the rule book.

You can't make the rule book big enough to include them all and still be small enough for match officials to easily reference.

Fuck that noise.

Admit the arms race and the impossibility of curbing it.

Box. Scale. Trigger pull guage.


Blame.

Enough to go around, in Spades. But it won't fix anything. And it won't speed up the process.

Fuck that noise too.

How about you guys with a Production stick up your asses suggest viable ways forward instead if pacing back and forth like demented retards?

You want a real solution in Production? Put forth an honest proposal that might actually work.

Sniping ain't a solution.
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It pins my irony meter when people post things like "your to stupid..."

You brought a rifle to a handgun competition?

#46 peterthefish

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:55 AM

My thought:

Create two informal sub-divisions.

1) Real Production: Follows the unforceable rulebook for production.

2) Fake Production: List / Box / Scale only.

If either has a clear majority of shooters after a year, it becomes adopted as the Real Production champ.

Because everyone wants to win, everyone will shoot L10 Minor (fake production), we can say real production was a failure, and move on with uniting Real Production with L10 to form the true division of kings: L 10Minor / 8 Major.
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#47 not that bryan

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:03 AM

Yes, the point is that your delusion is that we have an agenda, and we really don't have time to address the issues or even reply to the emails that roll in daily from members asking if things are legal and pleading their case. At what point is the market for production division actually the upfitters market? USPSA Production is a house divided, and no one wants the masses to vote because then they'd have to live with what extreme the market chooses. I got that way before you joined the discussion. Largest difference, you blame Troy, me, and the board. We spend way less time thinking about this than you do. We have a lot going on and this isn't even close to the number one priority, though the questions don't stop. I'd tell Troy to just say no to everyone who asks until that faction rises up and fights its own fight at this point. When I answer these now, I refer to the rulebook and the proceed to fight with the guy asking the question. House divided, everybody can't win. The mainstream market is no longer stock. Revolver and Single Stack shooters understand this is just history repeating itself, and that the equipment race exists at the manufacturer. Denying a guy to upfit his Glock, but allowing him to run a Shadow 2 or Stock 2 with trigger mods, seems really dumb to a lot of people.


You'll think I'm trolling but I'm not. You've got my email, forward the production questions to me and I'll answer them according to the rule book.

#48 not that bryan

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:06 AM

Yes, the point is that your delusion is that we have an agenda, and we really don't have time to address the issues or even reply to the emails that roll in daily from members asking if things are legal and pleading their case. At what point is the market for production division actually the upfitters market? USPSA Production is a house divided, and no one wants the masses to vote because then they'd have to live with what extreme the market chooses. I got that way before you joined the discussion. Largest difference, you blame Troy, me, and the board. We spend way less time thinking about this than you do. We have a lot going on and this isn't even close to the number one priority, though the questions don't stop. I'd tell Troy to just say no to everyone who asks until that faction rises up and fights its own fight at this point. When I answer these now, I refer to the rulebook and the proceed to fight with the guy asking the question. House divided, everybody can't win. The mainstream market is no longer stock. Revolver and Single Stack shooters understand this is just history repeating itself, and that the equipment race exists at the manufacturer. Denying a guy to upfit his Glock, but allowing him to run a Shadow 2 or Stock 2 with trigger mods, seems really dumb to a lot of people.


Other than one joking response to another post I've not said anything about an agenda. I do think you are making a mistake by undermining the rule book.

#49 Slow250

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:10 AM

I don't think that Production rules are unenforceable, but hey, that's just one guy's opinion.  A good benchmark is, if you have to ask, the answer is no, because it's production. 

 

I started competing with several dudes a couple years ago, to my knowledge no one has had to ask for a clarification, no one has been bumped to open and everyone's trajectory in the sport is a direct reflection of time spent practicing, nothing to do with triggers or hammers. 

 

A lot of this is just yelling at the TV, which in general is just venting and no action or response is expected.  When you have organizational leadership that clearly cares about the sport actually responding is when it gets weird... 

 

I think there is a solution somewhere where Production is protected and the bros that want to shoot X part are happy.  Has anyone floated L10 being scored minor only? 


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#50 Mike Foley

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:11 AM

You'll think I'm trolling but I'm not. You've got my email, forward the production questions to me and I'll answer them according to the rule book.


I only think you are trolling when you accuse me of an agenda, that is pretty obvious I don't have. This I believe. Thanks for your generous offer.

#51 Alfred Salveti

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:17 AM

I think Production was lost when a Gunsmith was declared a firearm maker.  It didn't happen right away but it's crept to this point.

 

Production is thoroughly wrecked.

 

Just to be clear, poor Charlie's trigger is still illegal right?

 

Fix:

 

Guns on a list.  mag capacity, fits in a box, weighs a certain amount, nothing hanging on it/off it (no frame weights, mag wells). holster type stays the same, holster position goes away.  Maybe triggers above #2.5.

 

I've spent the last year shooting outlaw matches and I'm surprised how much less drama there than USPSA.


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#52 B_RAD

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:28 AM

Just to be clear, poor Charlie's trigger is still illegal right?


Can't see how his trigger can be "enforced" so it's not illegal?......
You serious, Clark?

#53 Ben

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:30 AM

It's no secret that this is my preference at this point, but I'm not exerting my opinion into the process.

​Excellent leadership



#54 Ben

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:38 AM

I don't think that Production rules are unenforceable, but hey, that's just one guy's opinion.  A good benchmark is, if you have to ask, the answer is no, because it's production. 

 

I started competing with several dudes a couple years ago, to my knowledge no one has had to ask for a clarification, no one has been bumped to open and everyone's trajectory in the sport is a direct reflection of time spent practicing, nothing to do with triggers or hammers. 

 


​Some people don't want to accept that the reality on the ground is fine. When people insist on there being a crisis they will zero in on anything that supports that position and it in their minds it becomes real.



#55 Mike Foley

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:40 AM

​Excellent leadership


I'm not sure what you are getting at.

#56 Just Some Random Hoser

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:12 AM

...
Mag capacity limit (10/15, just pick one, it doesn't matter which)

...
 

If you make it 15 round capacity, I have a hooker on retainer here in Louisville, welcome to her whenever....



#57 LeadChucker

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:16 AM

I understand the frustration - on everyone's part.
At the moment it's impossible for the chrono guy or any other match official to enforce the Production rules pertaining to gun models and allowable smithing and outright modifications.
The only possible way would involve a massive branching flow chart listing all possible models and mods and near or complete gun disassembles. To prevent liability, the guys doing the disassembly would need to be licensed gunsmiths and insured so guns could be returned to their owners in working condition.
That, of course is unworkable.
There is a fourth way forward, Mike.
Pare down the equipment specs to easily verifiable tests.
Fits in a box with mag inserted.
Max/minimum weight empty.
Safe Action, DA/SA ONLY. Specified minimum trigger pulls for SA, DA/SA.
No removal of safeties or changing the mechanism of their function. The competitor will disassemble their gun for any range official that asks in a safe are to demonstrate compliance. Illegal modification of safety not a bump to open, but a match DQ instead. Because safety.
No optics. No ports. No compensators. No muzzle brakes.
Mag capacity limit (10/15, just pick one, it doesn't matter which)
Whatever other things that make Production 'production' that can be easily discerned without disassembly.
People want to stipple the fuck out of the gun? Don't care.
People want to add/remove weight, slide/frame cuts? If it makes weight, don't care.
People want a fancy trigger? If it makes the minimum trigger pull, don't care.
People want to swap their trigger for another shape? Don't care.
People want a gas pedal? If it fits in the box, don't care.
People want a sight system that looks like a penis framed by a vagina? Don't care.
People want a cone/bushing or a barrel with hard pink anodization? Don't care.
People want...
How about we all just put on our big boy pants and admit that Production is broken and that it never again will be the 'Entry Division'? The arms race is on and will continue. It can't be stopped.
Because competition.
Because manufacturers.
One more thing...
No letters from anyone certifying this or that mod compliance. If the rule set is simplified, between the box and trigger gauge, they simply won't be needed anyway.
Chrono guy needs a scale (he has one already), a Production box (he has one already) and a trigger pull gauge (the only addition needed for enforcement).
Boom.
Done.


The above seems pretty simple and would solve a lot of problems.

  

It's no secret that this is my preference at this point, but I'm not exerting my opinion into the process.


I guess my question is why? IF Production is such a drain on HQ time, why not sit down with the board and come up with something along the line of what Doc did above?

This has been dragged out long enough.

And... Reading through this thread made me think... We often hear that Production is limited to 10 rounds to make it easier for RO's to keep track of shots.... Are IPSC RO's better at counting past 10? And NO I am not trolling.

#58 Tanfastic

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:19 AM

For those advocating status quo, let's say that there was finally an actual board proposal going up which laid out the simplified set of Production criteria in line with what Doc proposed, what would be your actual stated opposition to that proposal?  Other than "don't like change, don't need change".  What's the substantive argument against these actual changes, in terms of how you think it would affect the Production class negatively going forward?  If that solution would satisfy one side of the argument by correcting the "enforceability" issue that SOME perceive is a reality, what would be the negative consequence to those on the other side of it? 


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#59 Mike Foley

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:34 AM

The above seems pretty simple and would solve a lot of problems.


I guess my question is why? IF Production is such a drain on HQ time, why not sit down with the board and come up with something along the line of what Doc did above?

This has been dragged out long enough.

And... Reading through this thread made me think... We often hear that Production is limited to 10 rounds to make it easier for RO's to keep track of shots.... Are IPSC RO's better at counting past 10? And NO I am not trolling.

I don't have the bandwidth currently to do this right. There are seriously pressing things I'm engaged with that are mission critical. This one isn't keeping anyone from shooting. The drain is on Troy mostly, and me. No one else on staff even knows what any of this means except Jake and Gary, who also have full plates, and don't get involved in rules issues. When the board visits this, and it will, all options will be on the table. The guys complaining here don't want that, and at least a couple have said as much.

Added: The priority on this subject depends largely on the point of view. To do this right is more important than doing it fast.

#60 LeadChucker

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 12:01 PM

To do this right is more important than doing it fast.


I totally agree on the speed/timing. I get that there are a lot of things going on too.

But this needs to be sorted out, hopefully by year's end.... to end all of the bitching that is going on. Let's get things back to shooting only.... rather than so rules focused as it seems to be lately.




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