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One Division for Irons


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#1 Bjorn

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 08:06 AM

So the World Shoot is over and it made me wonder why we have three iron sight divisions, and all that separates them is a bunch of dumb equipment requirements that do not seem to make a big difference in score or shooting experience.

Some things I noticed:

- There are only five Standard shooters above the first Production shooter in the combined results.
- Bob Vogel shot a Glock without a magwell to his 2nd place finish in Standard.
- There are great shooters in both divisions who will not face off in competition, but they're basically looking at the same sights and pulling the same triggers.
- The biggest difference between Production and Standard seems to be ammo (Major vs. Minor and capacity).
- The capacity of Production guns is limited by rule, but they can hold the same amount of rounds as standard guns.
- because of the IPSC limit of 5" for PD barrels, practically all PD guns fit the box.
- hauling shitloads of .40 ammo to overseas/to other countries is a PITA, compared to hauling or buying 9mm.
- The modifications done to Standard guns to make them "more competitive" than PD guns are cheap (magwell, thumbrest, etc.)
- Do people still start out choosing Standard over PD?


So, what would happen if Standard/Production would be turned into just "Standard" with the following rules:

- IPSC box and capacity limited to X rounds (say, 15)
- Trigger pull limit (first shot) of say, 3 lbs
- Minor only
- No ports/comps
- No electronic sights
- Mods allowed
- Perhaps a weight limit, because it is easy to enforce

Wins:
- No more dicking around with a million rules about grips, springs, serrations and other trivial shit.
- A retard could do the equipment check (scale, box, trigger pull gauge and check for holes and dots), instead of having a stack of catalogs and knowing every gun.
- All great shooters have to compete against each other.
- Level playing field pretty much remains (.40 shooters can keep their stuff and load to 125PF).

Viable? Inevitable? Dumb as shit?
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#2 GooldMember

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 08:15 AM

3# trigger would royally piss of all SAO shooters, and is dumb.

 

Part of what is cool about standard is having to figure out how to fit all that stuff into the box (angled magwells, basepads, chopped thubrests, etc) and get the most capacity while again, fitting the box

 

Minor is dumb

 

Weight limit would also be silly, if you want to run a full length dust cover with a steel grip, tungsten magwell and tungsten guide rod, be my guest. 

 

I agree with what you have listed as wins though. 



#3 Bjorn

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 08:28 AM

3# trigger would royally piss of all SAO shooters, and is dumb.

Part of what is cool about standard is having to figure out how to fit all that stuff into the box (angled magwells, basepads, chopped thubrests, etc) and get the most capacity while again, fitting the box

Minor is dumb

Weight limit would also be silly, if you want to run a full length dust cover with a steel grip, tungsten magwell and tungsten guide rod, be my guest.

I agree with what you have listed as wins though.

It would be easy to eliminate the trigger pull rule and start cocked and locked, since almost all competitive guns have that option, or are striker fired. Sigs and Berettas would be fucked in a minor way.

Minor is one of the only things I see as inevitable, eventually. Mind you, I'm only talking IPSC here, where traveling across borders is way more common. Don't know about flying though.

Agree on the weight limit.especially since it is super easy and cheap to make a gun heavier/lighter if you want to.

The part about it being fun figuring out the box part is one of those things people will not miss once it is gone, I think.
The only reason people do that anyway is for capacity, magwell and maybe half an inch of sight radius, right?

#4 adoo

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 08:47 AM

Everyone needs ammo mules that shoot prod as friends :P 



#5 Perfecto

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 12:30 PM

Rules for Standard are just fine. Same for Open and Revo. Actually it is Production that is f-ed up, somewhat Classic too.

 

It's Production that has become Standard Minor, so why change Standard to be closer to Production?


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#6 Peally

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 12:43 PM

This shit again?


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#7 Perfecto

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 12:48 PM

This shit again.


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#8 Bjorn

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 01:56 PM

No, you don't understand. This time it's different!

#9 Perfecto

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 02:02 PM

No, you don't understand. This time it's different!

 

Yes, yes. Go play with Your crayons, adults are talking here.


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#10 Peally

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 02:28 PM

Too late bitches I already ate em all.



#11 Perfecto

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 02:39 PM

What color had the best taste?


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#12 GuanoLoco

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 02:56 PM

How many people shoot Standard minor or Limited minor, and is it really comparable?
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#13 Trigger Warning

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 03:59 PM

How many people shoot Standard minor or Limited minor, and is it really comparable?


Every and any thing is comparable if you conclude first and logic second.

But there's a reason why history records the ascent of a formidable mountain and worries not about the descent. And that's because minor is dumb.
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On injured reserve.


#14 Peally

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 04:00 PM

What color had the best taste?

 

I like grape.



#15 dansedgli

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 04:23 PM

Production guns are dumb. Lolwut at 3lb first trigger pull. Gtfo.

#16 foofighter

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 12:09 AM

There should be 0 divisions for irons. CO and Open are the future. Go with the times.


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#17 slemmo

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 01:02 AM

Remove production, remove the requirement for DA first shot and just call it standard minor and major, put everything in the box. 9mm guns would benefit from larger magazine capacity, major would benefit from major.

How many rounds of 9mm could you cram into a gun and fit the box? or within USPSA magazine lenght limit?


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#18 Bjorn

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 02:48 AM

- IPSC box and or capacity limited to X rounds (say, 15)
- Trigger pull limit (first shot) of say, 3 lbs 
- Minor only
- No ports/comps
- No electronic sights
- Mods allowed
- Perhaps a weight limit, because it is easy to enforce

 

Using only the box would fail to unite the two divisions IMO, because you will just end up with Standard as it is. Nobody shoots minor in Standard.

Apparently the advantage of shooting major outweighs the advantage of carrying 3 rounds more. The only division that seems to ride the line between major and minor being equally advantageous is Classic. So having a division where both major and minor will do well, would mean neutering capacity to 8 - 10 rounds. Not exactly ideal, IMO. 

The only other way to let both 40s and 9s play the same game is fix capacity and have people download 40 to minor.

 

So, Minor only, fixed capacity and the rest remains as Standard is today. 

 

But it would probably be easier to just simplify Production rules and let Standard die its slow death.


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#19 Matt1

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 04:23 AM

- IPSC box and or capacity limited to X rounds (say, 15)
- Trigger pull limit (first shot) of say, 3 lbs 
- Minor only
- No ports/comps
- No electronic sights
- Mods allowed
- Perhaps a weight limit, because it is easy to enforce

 

Using only the box would fail to unite the two divisions IMO, because you will just end up with Standard as it is. Nobody shoots minor in Standard.

Apparently the advantage of shooting major outweighs the advantage of carrying 3 rounds more. The only division that seems to ride the line between major and minor being equally advantageous is Classic. So having a division where both major and minor will do well, would mean neutering capacity to 8 - 10 rounds. Not exactly ideal, IMO. 

The only other way to let both 40s and 9s play the same game is fix capacity and have people download 40 to minor.

 

So, Minor only, fixed capacity and the rest remains as Standard is today. 

 

But it would probably be easier to just simplify Production rules and let Standard die its slow death.

 

I actually had to check the results to see what Eric shot because it looked like he was shooting minor in training prior. Robin has whipped our arses down under shooting minor a couple of times so it is possible.  The capacity difference should be more like 5 (19 for .40, 24 for 9mm).

 

I think PD needs to die personally.  The reality is that people like to work on their guns and it's bloody hard to police so why not make it legal subject to some conditions i.e. no dot or comp and has to fit the box (or basically IPSC Standard). Swapping the box for a mag length requirement would also work and would basically achieve the same thing (a capacity ceiling).



#20 Bjorn

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 04:46 AM

I think PD needs to die personally.  The reality is that people like to work on their guns and it's bloody hard to police so why not make it legal subject to some conditions i.e. no dot or comp and has to fit the box (or basically IPSC Standard). Swapping the box for a mag length requirement would also work and would basically achieve the same thing (a capacity ceiling).

 

Good points and although we both want different divisions to die, I think we're actually on the same page. I find it strange that you cannot change little things on a PD gun without rendering is useless for PD. The standard reaction is: well, shoot standard then. But Standard is a .40 division (at least if you want to play at world level) and a Shadow or Stock II will not cut it, even if you trick it out with thumb rests, SA triggers, magwells, etc. The major/minor thing is in the way. 

 

I believe the main reason people choose PD over Standard is 9mm ammo. The cost of the gun probably very distant 2nd.

But the rules of Standard are just more appealing and so much easier to enforce. The rules of PD have been a constant PITA since the beginning.

 

So what rule changes would it take to make a former PD gun "competitive" against Standard guns, under Standard rules?

I'm leaning more and more towards "all it would take is minor only" and leave the rest as it is. 






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