15 replies to this topic

[90lxracer]

I re-watched on of Ben's dvd last night, and something occurred to me.. This goes beyond the grip, transitions, trigger control and what have you.. Indexing the gun, and I don't believe he goes into it.. I guess maybe as a part of the draw?.. but it seems more in regards the quick way to get the gun up and ready, but I would think indexing carries further in the run than just the draw, and the path from the holster to in front of your face. 

 

I understand that grip is important.. as I've recently thought I had my own Ah-Ha moment about it.. But even if you have a crappy grip, if you can index the gun consistently (and actually press the trigger straight back) you're going to hit your target..

 

I mean.. In my head, proper index will allow you to transition faster, it will allow you to pick between focal/focus planes (if I'm using the right term here) allow you to fire more quickly after moving between target positions better, and make reloads more automatic. 

 

So it's speed and consistency of your index that would be a driver for almost all other aspects of the game. 

 

Would it then be in precedence of things to get gooder (for a total noob) 

1: Index

2: Grip

3: Trigger press

 

Where.. if your index is off.. does it really matter how good or consistent your grip is, then once you have those both down, concentrate on trigger press? Does a killer grip, and index as in a locked in grip, and sights perfectly in front of your face allow of a slightly more messy trigger press??  

 

 

I have time to ponder this crap while I commute to work... 

[Bikerburgess]

I think it's all different ways of saying the same thing.
I believe the key to high level performance is being able to make assumptions about ever the gun is going to be pointed at some time in the near future and be able to make decisions based on those assumptions then finally use the sights to verify your assumptions were correct. Basically decide, do, see, verify.
If you have a bad grip your index will be off so it's harder to work in the future with any degree of confidence

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[Fishyjoe]

Here is the answer:



Aiming/indexing or whatever the fuck you want to call it is useless if you can't pull the trigger without moving the gun.

[90lxracer]

Here is the answer:



Aiming/indexing or whatever the fuck you want to call it is useless if you can't pull the trigger without moving the gun.

 

 

I've seen this.. and i do agree.. But even in his example he has people get a proper grip first before trigger pull..

 

But what good is a straight trigger press if you can't get it aimed?  Seems is kind of chicken and egg.. or a person's thought process..

 

And to be a touch.. maybe a lot pedantic is *aiming* really the same as indexing??? 

 

Where indexing is how you present the gun.. and aiming would be the choice of focus ie front sight, both, target.. 

 

*edit after re-watching*

[Peally]

All three are critical and tie into each other. Grip is probably the most important since fucking it up fucks your index, and getting it right minimizes shitty trigger pulling.

[Fishyjoe]

I see what you're saying about aim/indexing but i think your missing the point.

Not sure about chicken or egg but in the act of shooting grip always comes first. If your grip is off then your index will be off as well because the sight won't be in the spot they're supposed to be. Purposely botch your grip and run a bill drill and compare it to getting a perfect grip. What I've found out that it's actually faster to correct your grip than run it with a shitty grip due to better hits.

My point is grip is the 1st thing you have to get right. It's literally the 1st step of the entire process. If you botch the grip you have to readjust and that cost time. 2nd is pulling the trigger. Grip, aim, index doesn't matter if you can't keep the gun aligned during the act of pulling the trigger.

[Sweet T]

grip is an inextricable component of index.

[90lxracer]

All three are critical and tie into each other. Grip is probably the most important since fucking it up fucks your index, and getting it right minimizes shitty trigger pulling.

 

 

I can see that.. Grip LEADS to that good index.. that good index will allow whatever sight focus you deem appropriate in the shortest amount of time...  then you MUST have a straight trigger press. Rinse and repeat for the rest of the stage.. It's just *that* easy!! lol 

[90lxracer]

grip is an inextricable component of index.

 

So then.. does that mean my statement kind of holds true? 

 

Where yes, grip and index are in and of themselves different things.. However, there's an inability to separate them..  Siamese twins.. joined at the wrist.. (For any Smashing Pumpkins fans out there.. lol)

[Sweet T]

So then.. does that mean my statement kind of holds true? 

 

Where yes, grip and index are in and of themselves different things.. However, there's an inability to separate them..  Siamese twins.. joined at the wrist.. (For any Smashing Pumpkins fans out there.. lol)

 

I get what you are saying in an intuitive sense.  

 

I think there is difficulty in trying to distill these concepts into simple flowcharts or assign them a value relative to the other.  

 

Every element is derived from or complementary to the other.

 

Index is the kinesthetic marriage of a solid, repeatable grip and vision; honed through repetition.

[90lxracer]

I get what you are saying in an intuitive sense.  

 

I think there is difficulty in trying to distill these concepts into simple flowcharts or assign them a value relative to the other.  

 

Every element is derived from or complementary to the other.

 

Index is the kinesthetic marriage of a solid, repeatable grip and vision; honed through repetition.

 

You certainly won't get an argument from me on the any of your points! 

 

I guess, the whole distilling thing is how *my* mind works in a way.. I can see in my mind's eye the movements involved, and that's how it was breaking down for me (for better or worse)

 

I couldn't agree more with your last statement.. Muscle memory is one thing... it's the understanding the vision though... In my mind that's the going to take the time.

[Will]

No it's not everything, It's all interwoven. You've said it yourself "if you get a good index and a straight back trigger pull". You said both, not one or the other...

It is possible to have a great index, but have a trigger pull that sucks and knocks shots low left for a right handed shooter.

If you want step by step improvement, your logic is one way to improve: work on index in isolation, or grip in isolation - Bring them all together. If that is how you learn best, then it is right for you.

Trust in Sweet T and Rob Latham, they know how to crush a stage...

[Alfred Salveti]

Index means pointing the gun at where you want the bullet to hit without needing your eyes to be behind the sights guiding the pistol. 

[Peally]

You still need to look at a point to draw to it, unless you're talking about nailing your grip and sight picture doing wall draws with your eyes closed.

[Maxamundo]

Yes index is not talked about enough imo. Hwansik has mentioned it more often on the podcast which I love. It's so important to cutting time because a good index will make things happen automatically that you would normally have to put mental effort into

Index and grip go hand in hand. I did some experimenting with this check it out: https://youtu.be/w4Smwog1Lm0

[Dennis Solarsky]

True index shooting only really comes into play on close targets. Ones where u don't even really look at the sights. Index will help u get faster over all a little bit, but u still need to focus on the sights and have a good trigger pull. Grip is the first thing, but trigger pull is the last thing u do befor that bullet leaves the barrel. If u are talking about accuracy.its all in the trigger pull. U can have a shitty grip but if u have a good sight picture and good trigger pull u will still be accurate, just not fast. A good grip allowed u to control the recoil and get the gun back on target faster. No matter what u do, if ur trigger pull is messed up, u will screw up the shot.

I can see you're point on indexing as a training tool. Makes sence. Just remember, after the draw. Upper body should be locked in and all movement should be with the hips and legs through transitions, this way you're "index" and sight picture should never change until u drop the gun to move out of position.