Jump to content


Photo

David Bold on Glasses DQ


  • Please log in to reply
206 replies to this topic

#41 Area H8

Area H8

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 89 posts
  • LocationSitting down.

Posted 20 October 2017 - 06:49 PM

But he was at the meeting.

He took off his eye pro and walked past 100 plus yards of open backed, active bays, then went in one of them where they ruined his day. That’s the shooters version of events, not the RO’s.

It still sucks and I don’t think you’ll find anyone who disagrees, the guy getting or the guy giving.
Foley stole my B zone.

#42 (Sh)ItJustGotReal

(Sh)ItJustGotReal

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 922 posts

Posted 20 October 2017 - 06:52 PM

But he was at the meeting.

He took off his eye pro and walked past 100 plus yards of open backed, active bays, then went in one of them where they ruined his day. That’s the shooters version of events, not the RO’s.

It still sucks and I don’t think you’ll find anyone who disagrees, they guy getting or the guy giving.

 

Local rule or not, that guy is an idiot.  I believe Matt said he was a newer shooter so maybe he hasn't been fragged enough or hard enough, to realize, "Hey, that could have been my eye."  

 

Regardless of that guy being an idiot, it is the precedent that Troy has set that is being argued.  I don't even care that the range has that rule.  Seems reasonable.  

 

The argument is that this USPSA club has chosen to enforce the range's local rule, under penalty of DQ, without obtaining USPSA's approval to do so, as per the rules.  

 

If that USPSA club went through the proper channels and obtained USPSA approval for said local rule, we wouldn't be discussing this right now.

 

Had Troy done his job properly, and enforced the rules as written, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.


  • not that bryan and ncav8tor like this

#43 Mike Foley

Mike Foley

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 907 posts

Posted 20 October 2017 - 06:54 PM

It seems to me that "failure to follow reasonable direction of a match official" seems to be the way to enforce local rules instead of playing by the USPSA rules.

If local rules are not enforceable, but a match official stating the same thing is somehow enforceable, then there is no longer a prohibition against local rules.


Nobody hates local rules more than Troy. He tells people regularly that they can't do stupid stuff. If the range has a rule, and not the actual USPSA affiliate, he cannot enforce that. He gets in people's asses regularly over this. Rules haven't changed, nor has enforcement. Suggestions that fit all of the different ways clubs are structured are welcome. Remember, you can't possibly know what you don't know.

#44 (Sh)ItJustGotReal

(Sh)ItJustGotReal

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 922 posts

Posted 20 October 2017 - 07:03 PM

Nobody hates local rules more than Troy. He tells people regularly that they can't do stupid stuff. If the range has a rule, and not the actual USPSA affiliate, he cannot enforce that. He gets in people's asses regularly over this. Rules haven't changed, nor has enforcement. Suggestions that fit all of the different ways clubs are structured are welcome. Remember, you can't possibly know what you don't know.

 

While I believe what you're saying, his recent opinion on this matter is certainly contrary to what you're depicting.

 

Whatever happened to those clubs that lost their USPSA affiliation due to the range having a no muzzles over the berm rule?  If what you're saying in bold is true, they should not have lost their affiliation.



#45 Mike Foley

Mike Foley

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 907 posts

Posted 20 October 2017 - 07:06 PM

While I believe what you're saying, his recent opinion on this matter is certainly contrary to what you're depicting.


I honestly haven't read it. I'll look into it. We almost always talk about any real issues, but I know little about this as I've had my head down in other deadlines. Thanks.

#46 waktasz

waktasz

    Admin

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,090 posts

Posted 20 October 2017 - 07:22 PM

Local rule or not, that guy is an idiot.  I believe Matt said he was a newer shooter so maybe he hasn't been fragged enough or hard enough, to realize, "Hey, that could have been my eye."  

 

Regardless of that guy being an idiot, it is the precedent that Troy has set that is being argued.  I don't even care that the range has that rule.  Seems reasonable.  

 

The argument is that this USPSA club has chosen to enforce the range's local rule, under penalty of DQ, without obtaining USPSA's approval to do so, as per the rules.  

 

If that USPSA club went through the proper channels and obtained USPSA approval for said local rule, we wouldn't be discussing this right now.

 

Had Troy done his job properly, and enforced the rules as written, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

 

Indeed. Could be he was actively defying the MD, or he took them off to defog them and forgot he hadn't put them back on. I don't know either way.

 

22489661_10212666937122501_1354523319273

 

Troy:

OK. Let me tell you my opinion on this, since I've been paraphrased. First off, according to what I've been told (because, like most of you, I wasn't there), this range has a strict "eye protection worn at all times, except when in the designated areas" rule. Let me repeat that: THE RANGE. Not the USPSA club that shoots there, under the range rules. Before you start getting all hot and bothered about the "no local rules" rule, this rule is not from the USPSA club, it's a condition of shooting on the range, just like "not shooting before 9 AM, or no parking on the grass". Yes, it does impinge on the USPSA club operations, but I suspect if they were to say "we're not following that rule", the range would tell them to pack their stuff and go. So, just so we are clear, per the information given to me: the range requires glasses at all times. The range provides some areas where you can take them off, to wipe them, your face, whatever. Every person on that range is informed of this rule. This was not a temporary lapse in eye protection--the individual didn't wear his glasses for a period of time, and went onto an active bay without them, where the CRO DQ'd him, as he's pretty much required to do PER THE RANGE. The RM upheld the DQ. I mentioned the fact that we generally simply remind people to put their glasses on, but given the circumstances, this was not an option, and the DQ was the only option. The competitor (I was told) didn't have a big problem with it, as he knew the procedure, and admittedly didn't follow it. If that's not the case, then I received the wrong information. It's not that it was the wrong call to make, it was the ONLY call to make. Second guessing does nobody any good, and is one reason I very rarely play Monday morning quarterback. There is a fine line between range rules and "local" rules made up by a USPSA club. In some parts of the country, the USPSA club operates at the discretion of a parent club or range, and is sometimes at the mercy of their board when it comes to operational conditions. Some examples I know of: no muzzles over 45 degrees above the horizon; no rearward falling steel, glasses and ears at all times, all targets up against the berm or backstop...with some of the incidents that have happened.I suspect that some, if not all, of the action shooting disciplines will come under close scrutiny, and we'll probably see more ranges instituting rules like this. Again, this comes from what I was told in several email conversations, so YMMV.



#47 Alfred Salveti

Alfred Salveti

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 511 posts
  • LocationSugar City, USA

Posted 20 October 2017 - 11:11 PM

Sounds like USPSA is desperate. As stated, USPSA needs them more than the other way around. Where stronger men once held the line at "no local rules," current "interpretation" is to just pass the buck and call it a reasonable request from a match official.

The things that used to make USPSA what it is are slowly dissapearing. Looks like a frog in a pot.
  • Mistadobalina likes this
I like to rewatch election night 2016 coverage and I want to marry a conservative black girl who likes to shoot.

#48 (Sh)ItJustGotReal

(Sh)ItJustGotReal

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 922 posts

Posted 20 October 2017 - 11:18 PM

Sounds like USPSA is desperate. As stated, USPSA needs them more than the other way around. Where stronger men once held the line at "no local rules," current "interpretation" is to just pass the buck and call it a reasonable request from a match official.

The things that used to make USPSA what it is are slowly dissapearing. Looks like a frog in a pot.

 

Pretty much.  It's a genius model if you think about it.  Have clubs put on matches using volunteer labor and collect activity fees without having to lift a finger, provide support, or spend any money.  The value that clubs are paying for is a set of rules that all USPSA affiliated clubs follow regardless of where you go in the country.

 

But that value is slowly diminishing with every "interpretation" Troy makes that contrasts what we have in that rule book.   


  • Ben, Alfred Salveti and Mistadobalina like this

#49 Woodieproject

Woodieproject

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,074 posts

Posted 21 October 2017 - 12:03 AM

Sounds like USPSA is desperate. As stated, USPSA needs them more than the other way around. Where stronger men once held the line at "no local rules," current "interpretation" is to just pass the buck and call it a reasonable request from a match official.

The things that used to make USPSA what it is are slowly dissapearing. Looks like a frog in a pot.

 

No joke. Founding Fathers are turning in their graves. Club making a universally accepted personal safety rule, maybe because of a strong belief  or maybe because of liability, a sine qua non for USPSA activity on its premises runs contrary to the core what this organization was supposed to stand for. USPSA/Troy bending over is a sign of a further erosion and should be given equal weight to their other decisions like hammers and stuff.

 

Enough is enough. La Resistance now. No pasaran. 


Bonafide asshole

#50 aceinyerface

aceinyerface

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,166 posts

Posted 21 October 2017 - 02:07 AM

Indeed. Could be he was actively defying the MD, or he took them off to defog them and forgot he hadn't put them back on. I don't know either way.
 
22489661_10212666937122501_1354523319273
 
Troy:


Maybe we can just have a page on the USPSA website with links to Doodie, Enos Forum, and Facebook so we can track DNROI rulings and interpretations.

The interpretation itself doesn't bother me. Follow fucking directions!

Open shooters who don't paste, get ready, if you are given an instruction at the briefing to paste, 10.6.1

#51 aceinyerface

aceinyerface

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,166 posts

Posted 21 October 2017 - 02:21 AM

Range rule or not, upheld by HQ or not, DQing a new shooter for glasses is a super, double-ought dick move.

Could have said " if I see you without glasses on again, you are DQd".

That is kind of like having a buddy forget to take off his CCW before going in a bar with you, then instead of telling him to go take it off before people notice, you just call the police on his ass.
  • Mistadobalina likes this

#52 Buck Turgidson

Buck Turgidson

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,348 posts
  • Locationthe command bunker

Posted 21 October 2017 - 06:17 AM

I only go to ranges where big boy rules are in effect


I need something to do while shooting, and thinking about titties is too distracting  - Stubb


#53 Buck Turgidson

Buck Turgidson

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,348 posts
  • Locationthe command bunker

Posted 21 October 2017 - 06:18 AM

That is kind of like having a buddy forget to take off his CCW before going in a bar with you

 

I don't forget.  It's legal in my state.


I need something to do while shooting, and thinking about titties is too distracting  - Stubb


#54 Sad Sack

Sad Sack

    Forum Tard

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,172 posts

Posted 22 October 2017 - 07:23 AM

Know what we need?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A petition.


  • racetaco likes this

No one likes me, and I don't care.


#55 Motosapiens

Motosapiens

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,521 posts

Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:07 AM

Ranges that arbitrarily limit access to USPSA matches should not have a USPSA club any longer.

 

 

Not sure what is arbitrary about someone breaking a rule. That seems like the opposite of arbitrary.


  • FL2549 likes this

2013 National Champion C class  Limited 10


#56 aceinyerface

aceinyerface

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,166 posts

Posted 23 October 2017 - 05:37 PM

Not sure what is arbitrary about someone breaking a rule. That seems like the opposite of arbitrary.

 

Arbitrary is probably the wrong word.

 

unilaterally is probably the right word.

 

This is a true statement;

 

"Ranges that unilaterally limit access to USPSA matches should not have a USPSA club any longer."



#57 u sofa king we todd ed

u sofa king we todd ed

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 431 posts

Posted 23 October 2017 - 05:47 PM

Nobody hates local rules more than Troy. He tells people regularly that they can't do stupid stuff. If the range has a rule, and not the actual USPSA affiliate, he cannot enforce that. He gets in people's asses regularly over this. Rules haven't changed, nor has enforcement. Suggestions that fit all of the different ways clubs are structured are welcome. Remember, you can't possibly know what you don't know.

Yeah, you can tell people that they can't do stupid stuff till you are blue in the face, but they are gonna do their fuck all best to prove you wrong 99% of the time.



#58 Doc

Doc

    Google ( o Y o ) SME

  • Moderators
  • 4,264 posts
  • Location: safety wired in the pissed off position

Posted 23 October 2017 - 05:56 PM

Yeah, you can tell people that they can't do stupid stuff till you are blue in the face, but they are gonna do their fuck all best to prove you wrong 99% of the time.


Quoted for truth.

Sadly.
Unload and Show Clear...
tsarbombaexplos2.jpg
"Licorne" French Polynesia 1970

It pins my irony meter when people post things like "your to stupid..."

You brought a rifle to a handgun competition?

#59 Motosapiens

Motosapiens

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,521 posts

Posted 23 October 2017 - 05:56 PM

That is kind of like having a buddy forget to take off his CCW before going in a bar with you, then instead of telling him to go take it off before people notice, you just call the police on his ass.

 

in idaho (or utah I'm pretty sure) the police would hang up on you. carrying in a bar is legal. why would you go to a bar and NOT carry? that would be crazy.


2013 National Champion C class  Limited 10


#60 Trigger Warning

Trigger Warning

    That's What She Said

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,503 posts
  • LocationRaleighwood

Posted 23 October 2017 - 06:19 PM

Kick him out because range nazi then dnf him for match and leave the nuclear DQ option alone.

On injured reserve.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users