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#1 flyingpig

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 11:01 AM

Scenario:

 

 

 

Start position is unloaded with mag and gun on barrel. Barrel magazine must be used first on stage.

 

At start signal guy picks up gun and inserts barrel magazine into gun.

 

Mag doesn't lock in and falls from gun to the ground.

 

Guy then goes to belt and loads new magazine from belt  and continues to shoot out the stage.

 

What is the correct ruling  here?



#2 ToddKS

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 11:18 AM

If the stage briefing said "must be used" then I would say the competitor met that when he put the mag into the gun.

The stage briefing would need to say "at least one round must be fired from the barrel mag" or something similar for me to call a procedural, especially give that there is no competitive advantage gained in this case.


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#3 flyingpig

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 11:35 AM

If the stage briefing said "must be used" then I would say the competitor met that when he put the mag into the gun.

The stage briefing would need to say "at least one round must be fired from the barrel mag" or something similar for me to call a procedural, especially give that there is no competitive advantage gained in this case.

 

I don't remember the exact wording but it definitely didn't say anything about firing any rounds. 



#4 BenB

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 12:47 PM

Loading:
 
The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in  battery, (slide  forward or  cylinder  closed),  and ready to fire.


If the gun wasn't ready to fire, he didn't accomplish "loading" with the magazine on the barrel. Rulebook doesn't define "ready to fire", but I would rule that "magazine inserted, chamber empty" is not "ready to fire".

#5 Motosapiens

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 02:22 PM

We had a similar discussion here last week when one of our local hotdogs was desperate to try to give a procedural to one of the shooters that he considers a rival. I talked with two RMI's about it to get further clarification. Basically, any RM worth his salt would not allow you to write a wsb specifying that you had to actually fire rounds out of the magazine from the barrel. First mag from barrel (and similar wording) simply means that the shooter must use the mag.... and using the mag means attempting to insert it. Clearly if the mag baseplate falls off, or the shooter drops the mag in the mud, or whatever, he has already lost a significant amount of time, and it would be extremely retarded to further penalize him for not actually shooting rounds that came from that magazine.

 

So in general, if you pick up the mag but then drop it, you are free to grab a mag from your belt without penalty. OTOH, if you make no attempt to pick up the mag on the barrel (which would be dumb), then you get a procedural.


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#6 Motosapiens

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 02:23 PM

The stage briefing would need to say "at least one round must be fired from the barrel mag" or something similar for me to call a procedural, especially give that there is no competitive advantage gained in this case.

 

 

Just to make sure this doesn't get lost, both RMI's I spoke with said they would not allow a WSB that said something like that. Which imho is a good thing. Freestyle yo. This is not IDPA or some other lame activity.


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#7 BenB

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 02:31 PM

and using the mag means attempting to insert it.


I don't think the rulebook substantiates this interpretation.

So when two RMIs differ from the plain reading of the rulebook, what do we do?
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#8 Sweet T

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 02:33 PM



We had a similar discussion here last week when one of our local hotdogs was desperate to try to give a procedural to one of the shooters that he considers a rival.


That's pretty shitty.

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#9 Motosapiens

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 03:34 PM

I don't think the rulebook substantiates this interpretation.

So when two RMIs differ from the plain reading of the rulebook, what do we do?

How do they differ? Where does the rulebook say you can write stupid retarded shitty wsb's that require you to fire shots from a particular magazine in a freestyle sport?


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#10 Motosapiens

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 03:37 PM

If the gun wasn't ready to fire, he didn't accomplish "loading" with the magazine on the barrel. Rulebook doesn't define "ready to fire", but I would rule that "magazine inserted, chamber empty" is not "ready to fire".

 

If the wsb says 'shooter must load from magazine on the barrel', that might be a reasonable argument. But both RMI's said they wouldn't allow a wsb that said something that stupid; only one that says something along the lines of 'first magazine must come from barrel'. That wording allows reasonable and sensible sporting individuals to reject idiotic gimmicky nonsense depending on a literal application of a rule to a poorly thought-out wsb.


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#11 BenB

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 04:32 PM

If the wsb says 'shooter must load from magazine on the barrel', that might be a reasonable argument. But both RMI's said they wouldn't allow a wsb that said something that stupid; only one that says something along the lines of 'first magazine must come from barrel'. That wording allows reasonable and sensible sporting individuals to reject idiotic gimmicky nonsense depending on a literal application of a rule to a poorly thought-out wsb.


Works for me.
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#12 3gundago

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 05:46 PM

Scenario:

 

 

 

Start position is unloaded with mag and gun on barrel. Barrel magazine must be used first on stage.

 

At start signal guy picks up gun and inserts barrel magazine into gun.

 

Mag doesn't lock in and falls from gun to the ground.

 

Guy then goes to belt and loads new magazine from belt  and continues to shoot out the stage.

 

What is the correct ruling  here?

if its some dick with a 50 rd ppc mag, he's fucked.



#13 Doc

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 06:21 PM

The fix for dumb stages like this is to get involved and submit some of your own.
Unload and Show Clear...
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#14 Colonel_klink

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 06:31 PM

Scenario:



Start position is unloaded with mag and gun on barrel. Barrel magazine must be used first on stage.

At start signal guy picks up gun and inserts barrel magazine into gun.

Mag doesn't lock in and falls from gun to the ground.

Guy then goes to belt and loads new magazine from belt and continues to shoot out the stage.

What is the correct ruling here?



Are you askin for a “friend”?


In this situation, my opinion would be that it was fixing a malf. No penalty. If the brief only calls for being “used” first, and it was, anything after that is shooter’s choice. The attempt was made, it dropped, who cares.

I’m not a RO nor a RM. Hell, I barely have a grasp on the rules in general, so take from that what you will.

#15 Motosapiens

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 07:29 PM

The fix for dumb stages like this is to get involved and submit some of your own.

 

You probably weren't talking to me, but I design and build a stage for pretty much every match at my home club, and I double-check the others for compliance with USPSA and club rules as well as general safety and sanity. Part of the fix for dumb stages like this is educating people what 'freestyle' means.


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#16 Doc

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 08:29 PM

I’ve lost track of how many stages I’ve designed.

I can spot a stage designed by a rookie immediately.
Unload and Show Clear...
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"Licorne" French Polynesia 1970

It pins my irony meter when people post things like "your to stupid..."

You brought a rifle to a handgun competition?

#17 flyingpig

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 09:30 PM

The fix for dumb stages like this is to get involved and submit some of your own.

 

It was not a dumb stage at all. It was basically a simple barrel start with magazine next to gun where the magazine on the barrel had to be used. I'm sure no one was predicting what was to happen at the start.  And no it wasn't me, but it did happen in my squad. It was a ruling amongst friends who shoot together quite often. Lets just say that the ruling resulted in a zeroed out stage. hahaha. But no one was 100 percent sure what the ruling should be.


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#18 Area H8

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 09:49 PM

You should have given him a procedural for every shot he took for the rest of the match. Maybe even into the next match!
I’m sure losing a mag and having to do an additional unplanned reload was a HUGE competitive advantage.
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#19 maximis228

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 06:58 AM

I was the RO for said stage/shooter.

 

Briefing was "START POSITION – Standing with toes on rear fault line, gun unloaded and placed on barrel slide forward, cylinder closed, not propped.  First mag to be used must come from barrel. "

 

Designer of said stage was Mike Gnyra... So... yea...

 

We went with 19 procedurals for failure to follow WSB.  We all had a lengthy discussion about this at the match. Later we reviewed with some local RMs and they all agreed it would be 1 procedural. (RMs had some different opinions as well.)



#20 Doc

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 06:59 AM

Scenario:

 

 

 

Start position is unloaded with mag and gun on barrel. Barrel magazine must be used first on stage.

 

At start signal guy picks up gun and inserts barrel magazine into gun.

 

Mag doesn't lock in and falls from gun to the ground.

 

Guy then goes to belt and loads new magazine from belt  and continues to shoot out the stage.

 

What is the correct ruling  here?

 

 

It was not a dumb stage at all. It was basically a simple barrel start with magazine next to gun where the magazine on the barrel had to be used. I'm sure no one was predicting what was to happen at the start.  And no it wasn't me, but it did happen in my squad. It was a ruling amongst friends who shoot together quite often. Lets just say that the ruling resulted in a zeroed out stage. hahaha. But no one was 100 percent sure what the ruling should be.

 

...pretty sure that that's a fucked up ruling.

 

ONE procedural (if any). No competitive advantage. I'd actually argue NO procedurals because he inserted the mag and satisfied "First mag to be used must come from barrel. "

 

Moto is correct. The stage briefing did not require that any rounds had to be loaded or fired from the first mag. You don't get to narrowly define 'used' to mean exactly how the first mag was used. The start position is ambiguous at best.

 

Also, Moto's questions about what happens if the mag base failed or another malfunction happens are spot on. The competitor is going to lose time correcting the malfunction - no competitive advantage. Piling procedurals on top of that is not the way it's done.

 

More people need to go to RO school.


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Unload and Show Clear...
tsarbombaexplos2.jpg
"Licorne" French Polynesia 1970

It pins my irony meter when people post things like "your to stupid..."

You brought a rifle to a handgun competition?




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