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#21 T "G" O

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 07:20 AM

Doc,

 

What happens on a table start when you don't use the mag off the table on a classifier?

For the record... the correct ruling after discussing should have be 1 procedural but as mentioned by the RM (who runs level 3s every year) the per shot vs. one procedural is not clearly define and there are examples where everything it goes back and forth.


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#22 T "G" O

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 07:22 AM

One thing that is for certain in this thread is that the stage designer was and still is, a retard.  


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#23 maximis228

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 07:30 AM

Well I now have uploaded the run in question as well.

 



#24 T "G" O

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 07:31 AM

 

 

Moto is correct. The stage briefing did not say that any rounds had to be loaded or fired from the first mag. You don't get to narrowly define 'used' to mean exactly how the first mag was used. The start position is ambiguous at best.

 

 

 

I am interested in this comment...

 

I've been shooting this sport since 2010ish... travel from coast to coast shooting matches and ANY time there is a stages that says first mag or all mags "to be used on stage" blah blah blah its is defined as you must take that mag and fire rounds from it, and not any other mag.

 

You are suggesting that if someone doesn't specifically say "all ammo to be used" must start on table... its acceptable to use mags off your belt or get the stage tossed from not being clear on what to do?

 

Area 5 this weekend has a stage that says "all mags to be used must come from table".... should it be ok to not used them?  Then argue your point? 



#25 Doc

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 07:41 AM

The competitor inserted the first mag and attempted to 'use' it. It fell out of the gun. He probably should have picked up THAT MAG and reinserted it. He didn't. ONE procedural would be good enough for me. YMMV.

 

The problem here is that the stage description only specified the first mag. Shit happens. Basepads fly off during insertion. Springs jam and you get a failure to feed. After all of that, you're telling me that the competitor has to pick up his broken mag and fix it before he can proceed?

 

Simple fix. All mags on the barrel or none of them.

 

And to specifically answer your question: Yes, the WSB needs to specify all AMMO, not just mags.

 

Because gamers and range lawyers.

 

Again, a simple fix.

 

And don't try arguing that official classifiers don't say that. There are plenty of classifiers with errors on them.


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#26 T "G" O

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 07:48 AM

Good point on the all mags or none... noted for the future.

 

 

 

And don't try arguing that official classifiers don't say that. There are plenty of classifiers with errors on them.

 

But they set the precedence for how things are rule... you look at the rulebook, no clear definition, you look at previous examples of such rulings and classifiers (officially issued stuff) states per shot...



#27 maximis228

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 07:52 AM

Man... Ive shot tons of majors with stages like this. They all seemed to get approved by DNROI... Weird.

 

Why else would stages like this be run at locals?... LOL



#28 Doc

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 07:53 AM

Good point on the all mags or none... noted for the future.

 

 

But they set the precedence for how things are rule... you look at the rulebook, no clear definition, you look at previous examples of such rulings and classifiers (officially issued stuff) states per shot...

 

True enough.

 

While you were responding, I was looking through my classifier binder looking for a really poorly written classifier and can't find it.

 

There used to be one that had a large diagram showing target alignment. Cool. The problem was, the setup notes at the bottom of the page didn't agree. We never set up or shot that classifier.


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#29 Motosapiens

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 07:53 AM

I am interested in this comment...

 

I've been shooting this sport since 2010ish... travel from coast to coast shooting matches and ANY time there is a stages that says first mag or all mags "to be used on stage" blah blah blah its is defined as you must take that mag and fire rounds from it, and not any other mag.

 

You are suggesting that if someone doesn't specifically say "all ammo to be used" must start on table... its acceptable to use mags off your belt or get the stage tossed from not being clear on what to do?

 

Area 5 this weekend has a stage that says "all mags to be used must come from table".... should it be ok to not used them?  Then argue your point? 

 

all mags from table is a different kettle of fish (and i think it's a stupid way to start, and just annoys SS and prod shooters). we are talking about the fairly common situation where only the first mag must come from the table, and any subsequent mags must come from the belt.

 

People may want to define 'to be used on stage' as meaning you must fire rounds from that mag, but it appears those people may be wrong (and dumb).

 

what happens if the first mag slips out of your hand and into the mud? you want to give the shooter a procedural for not putting a muddy mag into his gun? Dumb.. He has already lost enough time, and he 'used' the first mag, even if he did a poor job of it. What happens if he puts the first mag in and gets a jam? For most folks, clearing a jam involves dropping the mag, clearing the gun and inserting a fresh mag. 

 

IMHO retards need to stop trying to creatively penalize people and just make interesting stages that can be shot freestyle.


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#30 Motosapiens

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 07:54 AM

Man... Ive shot tons of majors with stages like this. They all seemed to get approved by DNROI... Weird.

 

 

you've shot majors where shooters were required to fire rounds from the first magazine off a table or else get procedurals?

 

fwiw, there is nothing wrong with 'first mag must come from table'. IMHO (and in the opinion of the much more experienced folks I talked to) the problem comes when you try to define 'used' as meaning 'shots fired' instead of 'used'. That's just dumb.

 

I'm guessing dumb stage designers is probably the reason we have a rule specifically forbidding dumb stage designers from requiring you to download your mags. Perhaps we also need a specific rule to forbid dumb stage designers from requiring you to actually fire shots from a particular magazine even if it gets dropped or breaks or has a malfunction.


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#31 Motosapiens

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 07:56 AM

There used to be one that had a large diagram showing target alignment. Cool. The problem was, the setup notes at the bottom of the page didn't agree. We never set up or shot that classifier.

Sounds like Hillbilton drill. we shoot it all the time. the picture shows the no-shoots right behind the steel, but the setup notes has them 5' high. Just shot it a week or so ago.


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#32 Doc

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 07:58 AM

...looking through the classifiers.

 

99-13: "all AMMO for the stage must start on the table"

 

That's the only classifier that has mags or ammo on the table for the start.


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#33 maximis228

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 08:07 AM

You know your argument holds no weight when you bring up hypotheticals instead of the actual issue at hand.



#34 Motosapiens

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 08:08 AM

You know your argument holds no weight when you bring up hypotheticals instead of the actual issue at hand.

 

not sure who you are talking to. i thought the issue at hand was whether a retarded wanna-be-IDPA stage designer can require shots to be fired from a particular magazine, or else just require it to be 'used'.


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#35 Doc

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 08:08 AM

You know your argument holds no weight when you bring up hypotheticals instead of the actual issue at hand.

 

 

That has to be one of the stupidest things I've read on Doodie. And that's saying quite a bit.


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#36 maximis228

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 08:24 AM

not sure who you are talking to. i thought the issue at hand was whether a retarded wanna-be-IDPA stage designer can require shots to be fired from a particular magazine, or else just require it to be 'used'.

 

Your definition of "used" is hilarious. Attempting to use and using are two different things. But to you they are not.

 

Obviously this now needs to be defined in the Glossary.

 

That has to be one of the stupidest things I've read on Doodie. And that's saying quite a bit.

 

Please bring up more pointless classifier talk. Mini mart is another "mags not on belt" stage you forgot about.



#37 waktasz

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 08:26 AM

...looking through the classifiers.

 

99-13: "all AMMO for the stage must start on the table"

 

That's the only classifier that has mags or ammo on the table for the start.

 

You mean 09-13 Table Stakes

 

There's also "Tick Tock"

and Mini Mart

and Oh No

 

and some others I can't think of right now probably. 



#38 Doc

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 08:26 AM

Sounds like Hillbilton drill. we shoot it all the time. the picture shows the no-shoots right behind the steel, but the setup notes has them 5' high. Just shot it a week or so ago.

 

 

so, do you set the NSs low behind the poppers like 03-12 or at 5' where they almost may as well not be there?

 

Go into your archives and look at 03-13. No way a classifier should have swingers on it. Too much variation in both speed and height from club to club. We don't shoot that one either.


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#39 Doc

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 08:36 AM

You mean 09-13 Table Stakes

 

There's also "Tick Tock"

and Mini Mart

and Oh No

 

and some others I can't think of right now probably. 

 

yeah, my bad... 09-13 Table Stakes

and, yes there are others - I wen through them too fast.

 

99-21 Mini-Mart says all mags - it really should say all ammo. That would eliminate some range lawyering and clear up any questions about moon clips or speed loaders, etc.

 

09-03 Oh No says AMMO.

 

But classifiers are not perfect.

 

06-11 Where's the ammo (now deleted as a classifier) - It started with an empty gun on the table with "One magazine or speed loader is placed on the table with the rest of the magazines or speed loaders on the competitor's belt" It doesen't specify that the competitor actually must use that first magazine or speed loader though... Dumb. With palms flat on the table, I'd be tempted to ignore the mag on the table and just grab one from my belt. That's a muscle memory move and would be much faster than fumbling with a mag from the table, something few practice. Could the RO give me a procedural? I don't see how. The WSB says nothing about using the mag or ammo from the table.

 

That makes this classifier even dumber than the stage described in the OP.


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#40 T "G" O

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 09:00 AM

Soo... Doc you basically cannot find any evidence to support your claim of what "used" mean nor can you dispute that the per shot penalty is clearly wrong. 

 

Just dismissing stuff as "dumb" or "it should say" …

 

Got it.






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