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And as always that shit will get you killed...in the street...YO!

Ex-Delta guy on competition

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#21 ZombieTactics

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 11:21 AM

 What happened here is a misrepresentation of the issue. 

 

What you won't find is a large number of competition shooters bagging on tactical training wholesale, 

 

I don't find you bagging on tactical training wholesale. You are too thoughtful for that.

This forum itself provides a constant, apt counter example to your general case, however. 



#22 The Virus

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 11:48 AM

It comes down to this. Tacticlowns dressed up like Spec Ops guys running around playing Gi Joe who can't shoot for shit and are relatively unsafe. Basically guys who think airsoft is gay and they need to OPERATE for reals.

 

Being prepared at all times for the imaginary SHTF scenario and building clearing fantasy.

 

Closet Airsoft operators. 

 

!!!!!!OPERATE!!!!!

 

 



#23 ZombieTactics

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 12:02 PM

It comes down to this. Tacticlowns dressed up like Spec Ops guys running around playing Gi Joe who can't shoot for shit and are relatively unsafe. Basically guys who think airsoft is gay and they need to OPERATE for reals.

 

Being prepared at all times for the imaginary SHTF scenario and building clearing fantasy.

 

Closet Airsoft operators. 

 

!!!!!!OPERATE!!!!!

 

I submit "exhibit B".



#24 foofighter

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 01:07 PM

I submit "exhibit B".

 

I submit exhibit C


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#25 mustakrakish

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 04:19 PM

 

The Department of Defense and police departments spend plenty of time and money on shooting. What we lack is will.

 

Motivated teenagers involved in organized competition and motivated to dry practice at home are better marksmen than most school-trained snipers, to say nothing of the general military population. Uncle Sam greatly outspends them but the kids have greater motivation to improve and actually do it.

 

 

You're touching on another problem, both in the military and in law enforcement communities: just because a shooter isn't required to surpass qualification standards doesn't mean that they're prevented from doing so.  They're perfectly welcome to develop their skills further on their own time.

 

Anyone want to guess how often that happens?

 

Having done the DS Nitwit thing myself a few times, it was my observation that the range personnel were well familiarized with existing standards and courses of fire, and the manual was always available if there was a question.  (There generally wasn't.  It was all very simple.)  We even went so far as to send recommendations back up the chain of command, which were diligently ignored by those who received them.  When I enlisted in '96, that bullshit FBI flashlight technique was taught and everyone - from the instructors to the shooters - was fighting it tooth and nail.  When I got out a decade later, it was still required to be taught, but was no longer required to be used for qualifying.  I seem to recall hearing that it finally went away for good a few years ago.

 

This leads in to another point: government agencies, by and large, do not innovate.  They are incredibly conservative and reactionary, much like large businesses (or indeed any organization over a certain size) seem to be.  It's cultural in nature, but that culture evolved from experience.  These organizations do things a certain way until that method no longer works, and only then is change possible.  If the existing method is doing the job - however clunky or awkward it may be - forcing a change is nearly impossible, with the M16/5.56mm cartridge being a prime example of this.  In spite of better alternatives, it works more or less adequately, and we're left with a 50-year-old rifle.

 

In some ways, this is actually a good thing.  When such large, awkward organizations attempt to change a product without an external driving force, the result almost inevitably turns into a Mongolian goatfuck, and then we wind up with expensive turds like DDXXI, the ongoing F-35 debacle, Land Warrior, CVN-78, etc.  So perhaps it's better if we don't push this.

 

I don't disagree with what you're saying.  I just don't think that it's possible for a variety of reasons, both practical and ideological.  But again, no one is preventing a concerned soldier or police officer from going off and getting gooder on their own.  Most just don't seem to want to.


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#26 Ben

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 08:19 AM

If this opinion piece makes the case that "timmies" should stop criticizing competition, it equally makes the case that competition-is-king types need to check their premises as well. 

 

Could you explain this a bit more?



#27 ZombieTactics

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:20 AM

Could you explain this a bit more?

 

Sure ... why not?

The article makes a good case for what should be obvious: that competition is an excellent tool for developing and (to some extent) testing certain basic skills. Nobody can effectively argue otherwise. I don't know anyone who seriously believes otherwise.

I think many will simply gloss over certain other assertions in the article however, as they do not fit the "make fun of the timmies" cult doctrine. The statement "you use competition to practice shooting and you practice tactics when doing tactical training such as force-on-force or flowing through a shoot house", for instance is lost, because those are precisely the things that are being derided by those in the "cult of the timer". 

I should be clear that by "cult of the timer" I don't mean all competition shooters. I mean those who think that their own particular type of competition (USPSA, IDPA or whatever) is the end-all, be-all "one true test" of all that is good, holy 
and effective, for all people, all times and all circumstances, regarding firearms.



#28 Cheap Shot

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 11:12 AM

Sure ... why not?

The article makes a good case for what should be obvious: that competition is an excellent tool for developing and (to some extent) testing certain basic skills. Nobody can effectively argue otherwise. I don't know anyone who seriously believes otherwise.

I think many will simply gloss over certain other assertions in the article however, as they do not fit the "make fun of the timmies" cult doctrine. The statement "you use competition to practice shooting and you practice tactics when doing tactical training such as force-on-force or flowing through a shoot house", for instance is lost, because those are precisely the things that are being derided by those in the "cult of the timer". 

I should be clear that by "cult of the timer" I don't mean all competition shooters. I mean those who think that their own particular type of competition (USPSA, IDPA or whatever) is the end-all, be-all "one true test" of all that is good, holy 
and effective, for all people, all times and all circumstances, regarding firearms.

 

Well said



#29 TheBlackKnight

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 01:39 PM

Where are all of these timmies "making fun of" competition? I know some people who have given some thought to what is useful and what is not in a given context ... i.e. competition vs. "real world" (or whatever loaded term someone wants to use), but that's an entirely different matter unless someone is extremely thin-skinned.

Yeager gets brought up a lot in this context ... yet he openly recommends USPSA competition to his students. There's no derision or "making fun" coming from his direction towards competitors.

I've personally witnessed Pincus (another popular foil here) teaching CFS to IDPA/USPSA shooters. He didn't make fun of" anything, he simply taught his material and noted how the contexts of competition and self-defense have different markers for success. Is that a radical notion or just common sense?

Seeklander teaches different courses for competition and self-defense. Is he making fun of himself, or does this GM (with actual real-world experience) simply know that there is a difference and teach accordingly? Is this making fun of anything or anyone?

There are guys like Paul Howe who don't find much value in competition. Nonetheless, I've never heard of him making fun of anyone or putting them down. Where's the beef?

Honestly, there are few people who have attended more self-defense and "tactical" classes than I have, and I have never heard anyone (student or instructor) putting down competitors or making fun of them. I am the only person I know of who even engages in "good-natured ribbing", and I am hardly really getting in a twist about any of it. Even at that, I've been very open about the need to add competition to my activities. There is no better way to work certain skills, period.

Seriously, is there even an analog for the derisive term "timmie" or "timmay" used towards competitors regularly anywhere? Given that making fun of "timmies" is a big thing here and elsewhere, your complaint seems like a giant case of projection.




Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn both openly bag on competition ironically, and from what I've seen, seem to embody the "Timmy" mindset.

While you are technically correct that Yeager "recommends" competition and in fact IPSC over IDPGay, he then instructs people to always use their carry gear and never try to win a match. I'm really trying to figure out if he's really that dense, or is just the average yeager follower really not UP to shooting a match every once and a while with some simple belt gear without ruining what little gunzfyghter skillz he taught them.

sent from mah gun,using my sights


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#30 TheBlackKnight

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 02:32 PM

I submit "exhibit B".

 actually he is completely correct.

 

Lets just say there is a reason the photo's from the link here were taken out later            #23            


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#31 ranger_sxt

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 02:33 PM

Where are all of these timmies "making fun of" competition? I know some people who have given some thought to what is useful and what is not in a given context ... i.e. competition vs. "real world" (or whatever loaded term someone wants to use), but that's an entirely different matter unless someone is extremely thin-skinned.

Yeager gets brought up a lot in this context ... yet he openly recommends USPSA competition to his students. There's no derision or "making fun" coming from his direction towards competitors.

I've personally witnessed Pincus (another popular foil here) teaching CFS to IDPA/USPSA shooters. He didn't make fun of" anything, he simply taught his material and noted how the contexts of competition and self-defense have different markers for success. Is that a radical notion or just common sense?

Seeklander teaches different courses for competition and self-defense. Is he making fun of himself, or does this GM (with actual real-world experience) simply know that there is a difference and teach accordingly? Is this making fun of anything or anyone?

There are guys like Paul Howe who don't find much value in competition. Nonetheless, I've never heard of him making fun of anyone or putting them down. Where's the beef?

Honestly, there are few people who have attended more self-defense and "tactical" classes than I have, and I have never heard anyone (student or instructor) putting down competitors or making fun of them. I am the only person I know of who even engages in "good-natured ribbing", and I am hardly really getting in a twist about any of it. Even at that, I've been very open about the need to add competition to my activities. There is no better way to work certain skills, period.

Seriously, is there even an analog for the derisive term "timmie" or "timmay" used towards competitors regularly anywhere? Given that making fun of "timmies" is a big thing here and elsewhere, your complaint seems like a giant case of projection. 



 

For the most part, the actual instructors (Yeager, Pincus, Suarez, et al.) don't directly bag on competition. However, their followers all say this. A vocal minority of people who have decided that one certain instructor has developed the best overall method of shooting, and hangs on every word that these guys say, are the definitions of the Tactical Timmys. These are the ones that have the mistaken identity that competition shooting will somehow hurt them when they are in a fight...



#32 ZombieTactics

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 02:55 PM

Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn both openly bag on competition ironically, and from what I've seen, seem to embody the "Timmy" mindset.
 

 
Can you give me some examples of them actually "bagging on" competition, as opposed to simply being critical about one aspect or another? I am aware of Hackathorn saying things to the effect that he no longer considers it as useful as he once did, but he still considers USPSA or IDPA a good use of shooting time (even if not the best in his opinion). 

And seriously, isn't criticism from people who have helped to invent the very competitions themselves to be given a little more weight than random comments from some "timmy"?

This seems a little thin-skinned. And that bugs me because I think you are too smart for that. What am I missing? 



#33 ZombieTactics

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 02:59 PM

For the most part, the actual instructors (Yeager, Pincus, Suarez, et al.) don't directly bag on competition. However, their followers all say this. A vocal minority of people who have decided that one certain instructor has developed the best overall method of shooting, and hangs on every word that these guys say, are the definitions of the Tactical Timmys. These are the ones that have the mistaken identity that competition shooting will somehow hurt them when they are in a fight...

 

That's the story I keep hearing, but I never encounter it in person. It's pretty rare online, for that matter. You can't even find the analog to the term "Timmy" anywhere applied towards competitors, as it's just not out there.
 



#34 ranger_sxt

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 03:25 PM

That's the story I keep hearing, but I never encounter it in person. It's pretty rare online, for that matter. You can't even find the analog to the term "Timmy" anywhere applied towards competitors, as it's just not out there.
 

 

I've seen it a lot: in YouTube comments, certain forums that have built the hero worship around one or two trainers, Reddit, and more. It's really bad when someone tries to make a historic long-gun into something for shooting action competitions.

 

And there is an analog to Timmy for the competition shooters: Gamers, or Gaymers...

 

ETA: I've encountered it in person often. I help run a "Tactical" 2-gun match in Arizona. Because it had the term "Tactical" in the name, Timmys would show up once or twice, decide that what we were doing wasn't going to help them in a fight, and never came back. I've seen it when I shot IDPA a couple of times, and a former friend decided that he was no longer going to shoot competitions because it would hinder his outstanding training that he received at the Police Academy...



#35 ZombieTactics

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 03:43 PM

I've seen it a lot: in YouTube comments, certain forums that have built the hero worship around one or two trainers ...


That's a fair observation. I do have to note from my own experience that a lot of YouTube comments come from people who have zero personal experience in training or competition. I don't think it's possible to assign that kind of thing to "tactical timmies", unless the term applies to anyone who is being a jerk.

I'd admit that there are noobs in self-defense classes who parrot the "competition will get you killed" line, but they are almost universally corrected by the instructors or fellow (more experienced) students pretty quickly.

 

And there is an analog to Timmy for the competition shooters: Gamers, or Gaymers...

 


That is true. I don't see it often, but it's out there. Consider that blindside on my part corrected, and thank you for doing it.

 

ETA: I've encountered it in person often. I help run a "Tactical" 2-gun match in Arizona. Because it had the term "Tactical" in the name, Timmys would show up once or twice, decide that what we were doing wasn't going to help them in a fight, and never came back. I've seen it when I shot IDPA a couple of times, and a former friend decided that he was no longer going to shoot competitions because it would hinder his outstanding training that he received at the Police Academy...

 

OK, I'd never challenge a personal observation like that. Maybe I'd see it if I participated in competitions. And let's be clear ... those people are woefully misinformed. On that point we can agree.



#36 B_Seehawer

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:44 PM

That's the story I keep hearing, but I never encounter it in person.[/i]


#1 You must suck at being tactical

#2 You've been yapping about wanting to shoot competition for a while now. Shit or get off the pot.

#37 ZombieTactics

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 11:34 AM

#1 You must suck at being tactical

 

I think - in a weird way - that's almost a compliment on this site. So ... thanks?  :huh: 
 

#2 You've been yapping about wanting to shoot competition for a while now. Shit or get off the pot.

Fair cop.


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#38 TheBlackKnight

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 02:41 PM

 
Can you give me some examples of them actually "bagging on" competition, as opposed to simply being critical about one aspect or another? I am aware of Hackathorn saying things to the effect that he no longer considers it as useful as he once did, but he still considers USPSA or IDPA a good use of shooting time (even if not the best in his opinion). 

And seriously, isn't criticism from people who have helped to invent the very competitions themselves to be given a little more weight than random comments from some "timmy"?

This seems a little thin-skinned. And that bugs me because I think you are too smart for that. What am I missing? 

 

 

Example: In the Tac TV IDPA Carolina Cup episode, Ken was talking bad on the "unload show clear" thing. NOW! I actually agree or dont mind if IDPA or IPSC was run as a hot range.It makes me wonder how exactly people will clean their mags on muddy days, but whatevs. Thats cool, but what he was getting at is that he had a couple students who would automaticaly ULSC in classes when they didnt need to and therefor, that means for all people shooting all gun games are somehow learning training scars and thats bad, and since IDPA and IPSC dont shoot to Ken and Larry's rules and wishes, competition is bad and come shoot in a Hack class to compete with people without all that gamer stuff.

 

 

What is the problem here? 

 

1: If you do automnatically ULSC outside of a match, you are a idiot, and you prob do need some time on the range outside of matches. stop being a homo!

 

2: Frequency. What % of students who shoot matches do - - - - - -? Not a big %. Because my typical match has 5 stages, 5 reps of draws,ULSC, etc etc isnt going to ruin me compared to the total reps of time I have NOT automatically ULSC outside of matches, which I dont even do right away.

 

Remember, Ken is the guy who dosent recomend the g35/34's as duty guns because way back in the day, this one guy who was a NY detective had one in his coat pocket sans holster, and in needing the gun to do some on the clock shooting, had the gun malf because of some pocket change in the slide port. One freak, unicorn instance now somehow cancels all the guys using those guns who have good service records of these guns.


"""MAGS ALONG SIDE OF THE BOX BOB!!!!!!!!"""


#39 ZombieTactics

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 04:58 PM

Regarding Vickers and Hackathorn, I think we are simply going to have to agree to disagree. I don't see how your case is one demonstrating "making fun of" anyone, but rather outlining an apt critique based upon his own observations. Did he actually say "all people shooting all gun games are somehow learning training scars and thats bad, and since IDPA and IPSC dont shoot to Ken and Larry's rules and wishes, competition is bad and come shoot in a Hack class to compete with people without all that gamer stuff", or is that your inference based upon something far less direct? It also seems to fly in the face of Vickers very publicly teaming up with Rob Leatham to team-teach. 

I've observed all sorts of silliness by competition shooters in classes and FoF exercises (and a gun store incident in Tennessee involving a timer, which was truly priceless) myself.

Is noting that simple fact "making fun" of them?

No, it's simply pointing out that there is possibly something more to this "training scar" thing than some might like to admit. I don't claim it affects everyone, or even has to affect anyone at all. And, it certainly does not imply that competition is stupid, worthless or a waste of time. So, let's not pretend otherwise. Nonetheless, it happens, and with enough regularity even in my own limited experience to rationally conclude that it isn't exactly rare. 

 



#40 dravz

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 05:14 PM

No, it's simply pointing out that there is possibly something more to this "training scar" thing than some might like to admit. I don't claim it affects everyone, or even has to affect anyone at all. And, it certainly does not imply that competition is stupid, worthless or a waste of time. So, let's not pretend otherwise. Nonetheless, it happens, and with enough regularity even in my own limited experience to rationally conclude that it isn't exactly rare. 

 

Uh if you train at all you are going to have training scars. The alternative is to just be terrible forever. 


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